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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#131

Post by ferrumfist »

nexus_dave wrote: post #103
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

In 2019, immigrant entrepreneurs made up 21.7 percent of all business owners in the United States, despite making up just over 13.6 percent of the population and 17.1 percent of the U.S. labor force. As an immigrant I can assure you that my starting position was not that great. It is super sad to see the west being turned into an epicurean type world.

It's because immigrants proactively make their lives better while average Americans reactively complain about why their lives aren't perfect

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#132

Post by stelcodes »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #45
stelcodes wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure there was/is a TON of exploitation in the crude oil industry

Don't the technicians that maintain remote oil-rigs make $200k+/yr though?

I mean sure, there are some people who (sacrifice their whole lives for their oil bosses and) make high salaries, but these corporations will pay the absolute minimum they can and unless you are unionized you have no chance of a fair negotiation. And every time the pipes break plants/animals/ecological systems die. And it poisons our water, the single most important shared resource we have. And when we burn that oil en masse our planet’s climate balance shifts and plants/animals/ecological systems die. And going back this oil comes from the European conquest and mass genocide of indigenous Americans. A highly strategic, centuries long conquest that openly called for the eradication of an entire race of people. We literally live on and extract resources from stolen land won via carefully planned out genocide. There were ~100 million indigenous people in the Americas before European contact. 1/5 of the worlds population at the time. “Exploitation” is a euphemism, all things considered. It’s more like “extremely violent” and “deeply sick” IMO.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#133

Post by nanny »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

That is not even close to what nihilism means.

I don't think we should be lying to children. We should teach them honestly, even if the truth sometimes hurts. Maybe some of them will eventually be able to make life better for those who are less fortunate.

And just because somebody has next to no chance of living a cushy western lifestyle doesn't mean they're screwed and shouldn't bother. People can still live fulfilling lives.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#134

Post by watwut »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

> Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother?

What you say is that one should lie to people for their own good.

Also practically, none of that implies that doing absolutely nothing is a good idea. You are better off to work then to not work. It makes you eat better, buy new computer once in a while or new sofa. However, don't expect to become rich by working hard in your dead end job with zero chance of promotion.

And you wont be telling those people anything new. They all know that no matter how hard you work at moving those Amazon box in warehouse or driving Uber, they are earning for immediate survival and wont raise through the ranks.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#135

Post by exporectomy »

mc32 wrote: post #71
hawk_ wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't imported in case of China only technically. The rural to urban route was "imported" labor that mostly made city dwellers rich.

I don’t think that’s imported. It’s complicated by the hukou system, but all these people are Chinese, share the same culture (and to a great extent language). In addition, these people made a calculus where staying in their ancestral homes meant certain poverty and moving to the city meant immediate increase in income as well as better prospects for the future. The drawback is/was poor working conditions, but I’m no…

Those migrant workers in China are literally getting a better life through hard work or at least a better life for their children. They're not exploited, they're exploiting the money being offered them by the wealthier city people. Their work might not be very attractive to westerners, but neither was our ancestor's work, yet it still improved their and their descendants' lives.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#137

Post by themihai »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

>> What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother?

I think it's better to be realistic about your chances and it may help to drive the political discourse into the right direction as well. After all this is a political issue.

In the end as others have said here it's more important to have a balanced, happy life and good health than to chase the lotto ticket in a rigged game.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#138

Post by Daishiman »

apexalpha wrote: post #87
hdhjebebeb wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Northern Europe, not known for their abundance of slaves, is wealthier. Northern Europe didn't import a lot of slaves but they sure as hell benefitted financially from the slave trade. > Colonialism was not a huge success for England when you look at how much it cost. It was great for national pride and as a symbol of their "greatness" however. The motivations for colonizing were primarily economic. Do you think th…

Countries like Netherlands, France, England definitely profited form the slave trade. But there are many European nations, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, that didn't.

So you think that the abundant, cheap, raw material that made it into European factories that spurred the Industrial age materialized out of nowhere?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#139

Post by fullstop »

steveBK123 wrote: post #31

You had the post-WW2 boom, which then wound down in the 80s/90s but there was a small resurgence of "everyone is getting rich" in the late-90s Dotcom bubble and then finally the run up into the housing bubble. Since we have fallen back to a more historically traditional model - hard work can advance your life, but you are capped within certain bands by where you start, by and large. Where you start is regional, famil…

> The wool has been pulled from GenZs eyes (or was never there, given what they've grown up in) and they see the world for what it has become..

I have gen z kids so I see a lot of what goes on in their schools and how their peers act, and it does give me some hope for the future. They are the most inclusive bunch of kids that I've ever seen -- they are incredibly accepting of differences and do not tolerate bullying. It will be interesting to see what they do in the future.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#140

Post by colanderman »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #56

Every morning, I get up at 5, and go for a two-mile walk. Often, my walk coincides with the route of the garbage collection truck. Man, those dudes work hard . It makes my shoulders ache, just watching them. They are fast, energetic, efficient, and precise. Around here, they are generally Latinos, and they have quite high-paying jobs, compared to a lot of their peers. It's a dirty, dangerous job, and the benefits are…

This is the first I've heard of tipping trash collectors. Apparently it's a thing? How, logistically, does one even accomplish that?
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