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80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

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Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#191

Post by lwhi »

dagw wrote: post #182
lwhi wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it covers all the nuance of our individual situation. Without wanting to downplay your achievement, I've worked for organisations that did the same thing with MS Access back in the early oughts. The 'custom' application grew with the organisation. Features were bolted on over the years inelegantly. It was impossible to integrate easily with other systems. The quirks of the system were known by long time emp…

overpromise and underdeliver. Something that under-delivers is much more useful that something that doesn't exist. In most situations and most companies the the choice is never between the ugly Access thing and top quality software written by team of highly educated professional programmers. It's a choice the between the ugly Access thing and an ad-hoc collection of text files and post it notes.

> Something that under-delivers is much more useful that something that doesn't exist.

No. I disagree.

Sometime a badly constructed solution is worse than no solution.

> It's a choice the between the ugly Access thing and an ad-hoc collection of text files and post it notes.

I think this was definitely true before the advent of SaaS products.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#192

Post by hyperman1 »

rsj_hn wrote: post #82
gregjor wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entry bar got lowered back in the 80s with cheap home computers running BASIC. Lots of us learned on low-end low barrier to entry systems like that. There’s no gate keeping. Anyone who wants to learn programming has a wealth of tools and languages and resources to choose from, for free. This is a replay of previous attempts to pretend to democratize programming and reduce the dependence on rare and expensive prog…

Yeah, those basic computers were fun, but having an entry level computer you could write basic programs on wasn't going to help you automate business processes, whereas writing an office macro would. That's kindof the point - to embed the functionality with the data and existing applications, so you can think of these "low code" interfaces built into online apps as the cloud version of those old MS visual basic macro…

I knew a business doing just that with a zx spectrum. Even with the horrors of deafening chain paper printers and software on audio casettes. They had a CRMish application written by a student. They could print their own mailings with individualized coupons. Who cares if it takes a noisy hour in a back room to run.

Don't underestimate what people did with those things.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#193

Post by mark_l_watson »

liveinspain wrote: post #92
cardosof wrote: post #91

It's been around 8 years since this happened: I started learning R and a Gartner consultant told me I was wasting my time because, "as Gartner puts it", the future of data science is citizen data scientists with very little coding skills because the tools and frameworks will do all the heavy lifting. I ignored him because I liked the language anyway. I guess every now and then someone will try to sell a tool to "buil…

This. I've just built out an internal CRM for my travel company using Airtable+StackerHQ.com and for my business, it's hands down better than anything commercially available... because it covers all the nuance of our individual situation. 2 months ago, I was a bit down on no-code, but the experience on building on Stacker was good enough to change my mind. Softr.io is also getting there, too.

Thanks for your comment, I just looked at AirTable and StackerHQ. A quick question: is there a way to export your data to standard file formats, just in case you wanted to move off the platform to other vendors or write everything yourself?

I think that getting started quickly on a system that you will likely never have to leave makes a lot of sense, but it is good to have an exit strategy. Like with Heroku: keep running small projects there, but being able to move to alternatives.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#194

Post by dragonwriter »

rsj_hn wrote: post #82
gregjor wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entry bar got lowered back in the 80s with cheap home computers running BASIC. Lots of us learned on low-end low barrier to entry systems like that. There’s no gate keeping. Anyone who wants to learn programming has a wealth of tools and languages and resources to choose from, for free. This is a replay of previous attempts to pretend to democratize programming and reduce the dependence on rare and expensive prog…

Yeah, those basic computers were fun, but having an entry level computer you could write basic programs on wasn't going to help you automate business processes, whereas writing an office macro would. That's kindof the point - to embed the functionality with the data and existing applications, so you can think of these "low code" interfaces built into online apps as the cloud version of those old MS visual basic macro…

> Yeah, those basic computers were fun, but having an entry level computer you could write basic programs on wasn't going to help you automate business processes

Yes, it was, and lots of people with those computers and small businesses used them to do exactly that. (And others used them to do the same thing with household “business processes”.)

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#195

Post by adflux »

cardosof wrote: post #91

It's been around 8 years since this happened: I started learning R and a Gartner consultant told me I was wasting my time because, "as Gartner puts it", the future of data science is citizen data scientists with very little coding skills because the tools and frameworks will do all the heavy lifting. I ignored him because I liked the language anyway. I guess every now and then someone will try to sell a tool to "buil…

Ever tried Azure Customvision? Building image classification / object detection models is trivial using this platform. I was highly surprised by the accuracy and low cost... I mean anyone who can upload and tag images can make a production ready image classification model at pretty low cost...

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#196

Post by KptMarchewa »

dagw wrote: post #180
jka wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone still in the skeptic camp: what's a good example of a small, effective application that one of those products could help someone to build?

Do ETL[1] and data analysis applications count? There are several pretty good visual ETL and data analysis tools around that let non-coders write pretty advanced and useful processes. Personally, I consider FME (www.safe.com) one of the greatest pieces of productivity enhancing software I've ever used. That being said, as someone who works with those sorts tools, the quality of the solutions programmers can come up w…

>visual ETL

The one I've seen, Apache NiFi, is essentially a giant footgun. Giant, cumbersome, and does not deliver on it's promises - requires teams of engineers to make sure anyone won't fuck up the system for everyone else. And of course, possibilities for data loss and duplication are endless.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#197

Post by radicalbyte »

gregjor wrote: post #56
radicalbyte wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was an explicit design goal of one I worked on a number of years ago. These tools have their place: they allow smart technical people to be highly productive whilst abstracting a lot of the complexity away. Low-code tools fill a gap, they're the PHP / Rails / Python for Line-Of-Business / data-driven apps. They allow you to achieve in days what would take weeks in those languages and months in C++.

Agree. And we’ve had those tools available for decades. These new low-code/no-code tools have exactly the same potential user base and exactly the same limitations. No new or even interesting problem is getting solved, just a fresh coat of paint. Or reinventing the flat tire, as Alan Kay put it. How often do you see commercial or enterprise software written in Access or VBA? What happened to all of those? They either…

I've seen a fair number of Access applications that were rewritten simply because they need to work in a web browser. They were otherwise fine.

The system I worked on was specialised but highly capable - it could build applications that are very very hard to get right in PHP (but easy to get kind-of-right-if-you-squint).

What I would really love to see is a top class open source Low Code platform; I believe that it could provide a very nice tool of entry to software development, especially for adults.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#198

Post by akudha »

cardosof wrote: post #91

It's been around 8 years since this happened: I started learning R and a Gartner consultant told me I was wasting my time because, "as Gartner puts it", the future of data science is citizen data scientists with very little coding skills because the tools and frameworks will do all the heavy lifting. I ignored him because I liked the language anyway. I guess every now and then someone will try to sell a tool to "buil…

There was a bubble.io app (I tried bubble, didn’t enjoy it) built by a non techie, that is making 30k per month in revenue (I am trying to remember the name). Some of these no code / low code tools are really getting powerful and easier to use, at least for CRUD apps that aren’t complex.

I am guessing there are needs for tons of simple tools and businesses that programmers aren’t aware of, or not interested in working on. These would be met by savvy subject matter experts whose tech skills are good enough to build something with these tools.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#199

Post by Folcon »

lolive wrote: post #150

2016: - Some day, we won't even need coders any more. We'll be able to just write the specification and the program will write itself. - Oh wow, you're right! We'll be able to write a comprehensive and precise spec and bam, we won't need programmers any more. - Exactly - And do you know the industry term for a project specification that is comprehensive and precise enough to generate a program? - Uh... no... - Code,…

This may not be a popular opinion, but I can't help but think that though the claims are a bit grandiose the fundamental thesis statement is true?

IE: Each generation sees a "simpler" toolset being made available which opens up programming to a wider audience.

If assembly was still the only way to program we would have fewer programmers, same with C, or dynamic languages. Javascript and the web opened up programming to a whole host of new people.

They're all code, but you can't tell me that an assembly program is the same as a python program for example.

I'm not trying to say that these newer ecosystems are better or worse exactly. Just that each new generation opens up this field to people who would have never picked it up beforehand and we as a society are richer for it.

We see more apps/tools developed to serve a wider array of people's preferences and use-cases. Sure there are new problems, but I like the direction we're going.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#200

Post by m_rpn »

Low-code tools are the "non-alcoholic beer" of the IT industry, they go against the sense of the industry itself, which is not(only) getting drunk, as the case for the beer, but to create overly complex systems that you can make your clients pay millions for.
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