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80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

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Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#141

Post by lwhi »

ozim wrote: post #131
gregjor wrote: post #47

This idea gets recycled every generation. I can’t count how many “low code” no-programming-skills-required tools I’ve seen come and go in the last four decades. Both COBOL and SQL got presented in these terms. I’ve yet to see a “non-technical manager” write a non-trivial SQL query, much less know how to confirm they got the correct results. The various 4GL tools that proliferated in the 90s led to complex amateur spa…

Translating requirements into code - is about language and tools as you have to learn the language, as you noted "few people wanted to learn to use those". Third paragraph is saying about loads of amateur spaghetti code, so turns out it was not that hard. So third paragraph contradicts things written in the second. Low-code tools promise to address "problem of the language" so it is easy to translate business knowled…

> Translating requirements into code - is about language and tools as you have to learn the language, as you noted "few people wanted to learn to use those".

I'd actually argue differently.

It's more about a design process that requires domain knowledge, technical knowledge and the ability to assess a problem contextually.

Coding is only part of this process.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#142

Post by andix »

Good low-code tools would be great. But you are still going to need software developers to operate them.

The biggest job of software development is not just coding stuff, it is identifying the problem to solve and engineering a solution. Define a data model, think about which data is needed where, what can be done and so on. And then: properly test it! Develop tests, that confirm your stuff is actually working and safe.

Non-technical people most of the time are not able to come up with working solutions. And they never manage to properly test their software. As a reference check all those horrible Excel/VBA sheets. They are useful, but also a source of a lot of problems.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#144

Post by ozim »

jacquesm wrote: post #135
ozim wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen SaaS application owner who was thinking he could do SaaS with low code and cut the costs. On his place I would be selling "low code" but that guy was severely shortsighted.

I'm sure there are countless examples of this. But even so: there is a vast number of applications out there that are more complex than 'excel' and much simpler than 'bespoke software', and that niche is widening as these platforms become more capable.

I don't see it that way.

In the moment that you want to have multiple users working on the same Excel/Dataset and changing formulas/calculations/rules it is basically bespoke software. Well good luck changing stuff by each employee on their own.

Because there will be appointed one employee who will be making changes for that and as such "Excel" grows he will end up not working on whatever he was expert for but on maintaining that bespoke software.

I don't see low code platforms solving maintenance issue, they promise that you will be able to write code quicker and without developers.

When you get one of the employees working full time on updating and maintaining some low code, he becomes developer. Well you pay him the same salary and you don't have to shell out money for Java/.NET guy but you will pay for license on that platform. While you will be able to hire next Java/.NET dev, good luck finding that specific platform developers. Salesforce if probably going into good direction building their "consultants" base, where I don't see fundamental difference between "consultant" and "developer". Maybe you don't need consultant day in/ day out but they still charge like you would have them hired full time.

In the end I am biased because I am a dev and businnes risks I see are from different side than business people.

But as with Salesforce or any other CRM I see it as a huge lie as the system gets bigger and complex there is no running away from dedicated people doing maintanence. You just tie yourself to a proprietary tool where with Java/.NET you still tie yourself to an ecosystem but it is basically for free and you keep unbounded flexibility.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#145

Post by okareaman »

andix wrote: post #142

Good low-code tools would be great. But you are still going to need software developers to operate them. The biggest job of software development is not just coding stuff, it is identifying the problem to solve and engineering a solution. Define a data model, think about which data is needed where, what can be done and so on. And then: properly test it! Develop tests, that confirm your stuff is actually working and sa…

I didn't read the article as saying low code was going to replace programmers. Or maybe I just assumed it, because there is going to be an ever increasing need for programmers. Low code is a good way to off-load some of the tasks and spread the work out.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#146

Post by zby »

There is a progress in computers doing more of the stuff that programmers used to do:

* first we had assemblers and programmers did not need to remember all those binary codes

* then we had compilers and programmers could use the multitude of programming abstractions

* then we had 'scripting languages' that abstracted away even more details

In parallel we also have better libraries that implemented many other abstractions and we also had complete applications that did not need to be written from scratch.

So computers do more and more - and also end users can do more and more by using ready made applications and sometimes linking them together (and maybe becoming programmers in the process little by little). But there is still work for programmers - because the skill of solving problems algorithmically is still special.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#147

Post by HatchedLake721 »

dang wrote: post #85
gervwyk wrote: post #81

Was this post removed from the frontpage because of it's title starting with a number?? Can’t we change the title?

It set off the flamewar detector. The thread is better than that, though, so I've turned that off. More here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27511358

Regardless of the 80% number, it feels a right discussion to have. Technology is becoming simpler every year, allowing to do things today than only developers could do 10-20 years ago.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#148

Post by omnimus »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #86

I don’t even know of good standards-compliant WYSIWYGs for HTML besides maybe(?) Webflow these days, and that's proprietary. I don’t know how you’d do low-code anything today in any meaningful sense. Of all the people who care about automation, if there were good, viable low-code options, developers themselves would want to use them!

And even Webflow the value for users is mainly unified platform that includes hosting/dev environment and integrated marketplace of themes and webflow developers. It's really handy to be able to just contract anyone you just share access to.

The editor itself is ok but they've solved html/css by making gui for everything. You are writing html/css and you have to learn it. You just don't realize that. Apart from some animation/interaction there is not that much magic. Give it to someone with no html/css knowledge and you get "brute force" style of writing css where everything is inlined, absolutely positioned and has all possible breakpoints for everything. But i guess thats fine for the marketing pages.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#149

Post by qualudeheart »

quanto wrote: post #110

As a programmer, I am hoping the low-code future comes true. Many of the comments here seem critical (and rightly so). It is naturally to be critical as the no-code/low-code approach overpromised before, and its hypothetical success (if ever) will threaten the job security of the many in the HN crowd. However, the existence of low-code tools means that coders can focus more on the complex problems and/or work with th…

I hope every single low code app either fails or somehow increases the demand for real programmers.

Programming is one of the few jobs that e.g. autistic people can do and still earn a living wage.

It is a tragedy to see it replaced by another opportunity for rent seeking and grift by “low code” app companies.

Re: 80% of tech could be built outside IT by 2024, thanks to low-code tools

#150

Post by lolive »

2016:

- Some day, we won't even need coders any more. We'll be able to just write the specification and the program will write itself.

- Oh wow, you're right! We'll be able to write a comprehensive and precise spec and bam, we won't need programmers any more.

- Exactly

- And do you know the industry term for a project specification that is comprehensive and precise enough to generate a program?

- Uh... no...

- Code, it's called code.

https://www.commitstrip.com/en/2016/08/25/a-very-comprehensi...?

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