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It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

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Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can only believe this if you've fallen for the spin perpetrated by media outlets. The number of unarmed Black civilians killed by police each year is so small that you can fit the entire list of names and details since 2014 (31 total) on a few pages of generously-spaced HTML table rows: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unarmed_African_Americ... . This is against approximately 10 million arrests per year and…

Yep. A lot of people who’ve been hurt by racism in the past, engage in loose pattern matching. If the story is a police officer shot a black person, to many it’s automatically racism, despite whatever the facts are. That said, I’m black btw, the problems in the black community are not down to any one thing, but certainly the lack of two parent households is a biggie. I was fortunate to grow up in California with two…

You raise a very important point and one that is difficult to discuss.

I'm Asian and I grew up with parents who hewed rather closely to Asian culture. There are two values they championed essentially above all others, well known to most: devotion to family and the intense pursuit of academic achievement. I do feel like I've been a direct beneficiary of that cultural impulse. Much like yourself, I did my best to leverage educational opportunities and had the stability of a supportive family.

When we talk about culture and the Black community, many people become understandably wary. It's a fine line between invoking culture and being seen to blame Black people for their own problems. Not to mention that, in doing so, it can be easy to lose sight of the richness of Black culture and its extensive contributions to so many aspects of the American experience e.g. in music, sports, entertainment, art, literature, and cuisine.

Perhaps a better way to frame it is that when a particular community has suffered so much injustice and attendant compounded stagnation, it's very hard to find an expedient solution to bring that community to parity that doesn't involve constructing fresh and even revolutionary internal narratives around achievement (and not just academic). Without that sort of effort, it might take many more generations for a combination of government intervention and the natural course of progress to fully remedy the imbalance.

And there's also the problem of exacerbating racial animus in the course of addressing that imbalance.

While I understand the need for it intellectually, I have substantial misgivings about preferential treatment being extended specifically to Black (or Hispanic or Native American) people along racial lines. There is something that feels deeply wrong about attempting to cure racial injustice by inflicting new racial injustices on people whose only fault was being born a particular race at the wrong moment in history, especially when we are purporting to be an enlightened society that has learned its lesson in this regard.

The position is unpopular with many here, but it is my opinion that we should not be devising a society that argues that a boy from an underprivileged neighborhood in Philadelphia is more deserving of opportunity than a girl from a disenfranchised part of the Rust Belt because he's Black and she's White. Rather, we should be saying that they are nearly equally in need of help from society because they are both disadvantaged. While this is not perfectly fair insofar as it does not factor in race, I believe it is a policy position that on balance would help the Black people who are most in need of it without leaving anyone of another race feeling as if (s)he's experiencing undue discrimination.

Unfortunately I believe that quandary is even more fraught than the issue of police killings and therefore at present resistant to the possibility of honest discourse.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#262
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

Thats Indian Varna system right there.

Kind of a goofy comment IMO.

My parents are not intellectual in the least. The career advice I received from them growing up was all bad. Lucky for me I ignored them.

Now take one kid getting bad career advice and another kid getting good career advice from mom and dad.

After thousands of iterations the asymmetry is going to be huge.

Sorry that doesn't line up with the institutional victim mentality.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#263
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s equally unsurprising that the ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families themselves pursue such a similar path and achieve similar outcomes. That kind of misses the point. You want to train as many effective engineers and researchers as you can. The point of the article is that most Ivies can comfortably train more people, but doing so would reduce some of the scarcity "value" of an Ivy Leag…

But are Ivy League universities really that much better at training people or is their success mostly due to skimming from the top of the applicant pool? If the latter, then it seems like those students would do just as well if they didn't exist and nothing's really lost or gained either way by their exclusivity. If they have a magic recipe for creating success, why can't other universities copy it? Does it depend on…

Their magic recipe is putting a bunch of smart, mostly rich, people in one place and then telling them they are part of an exclusive community. Then they give them access to the older successful members of the community and constantly remind them that once they are the older successful members they need to help out the recent grads.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#264

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

Science needs to advance more so that we can determine nature vs. nurture. It's all genetic (nature) in the end - but I think being able to say "x lacks the genetic makeup to dunk a basketball" vs "x was malnourished as a child so they wont grow enough to be able to dunk a basketball" is useful. I think articles looking at outcomes of the children of successful people are unhealthy and will focus too much on environm…

I think it's been fairly well established that genetics determines the max values -- max IQ, max height, max athleticism, etc. and then nurture determines if you reach the max.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#265
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

Pretty obvious when you think about it. My Father was an engineer, although a different one than I am. As a child you pick things up when you grow. The fact that I had a computer at home back 3 decades ago, automatically meant I already had an upper hand and a better understanding of how computers work than most of my classmates who only got to see a computer almost a decade later for an hour every week in school. Al…

I still resent my parents for not keeping any books in the house apart from the dictionary. I can't remember how many times I flipped through the dictionary out of boredom growing up. Whenever I'd go to my grandmother's place, I loved to take random books off the book shelf and read through them.

I honestly feel like a great way to educate kids is not to teach them anything directly at all, but to instead leave lots of material around for them to discover themselves.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is one interpretation. Another interpretation is that in pursuing academic career requires a certain attitude towards studying which people growing in a family of academics are a lot more likely to have. In STEM it makes a lot more sense financially to enter the workforce after graduation so staying in university for another 5+ years requires some real love for science. In my experience people with parents in ac…

Not to mention shared genes for educational attainment and interests.

Is there a proven role of genetics here or is this pseudoscientific determinism?

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.

Someone I know is an illegal immigrant from Central America. She cleans houses for a living. Her husband is also illegal immigrant and he paints houses. Her daughter is going to one of the top private schools in SF, on a full scholarship. She dreams of Yale, and I would bet that she gets it easily. If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make i…

That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#269
Ivy League is the last intellectual bastion of the country.

If you break up Ivy League all you are left with is Silicon Valley cult of personality snake-oil salesmen and pump & dumpers posing as experts in every possible field when in reality their solely expertise is building social consensus around them.

How many nuclear fusion companies which are quietly shaping the roadmap for obtaining fusion in the next 20 years came out of MIT/Stanford/Harvard?

Facebook spun off Harvard, Microsoft spun off Harvard, Google spun off Stanford, Amazon spun off Princeton with a bit of D.E. Shaw thrown in the mix.

The author seems to me has watched too many videos from Lex Friedman and Eric Weinstein type where they endlessly talk about how broken those institutions are and never fail to mention Epstein for the extra views that it will generate.

As Bill Gates said the mainstream is always under attack and people of course will charge head down towards such Universites, forgetting how they (very much like the companies emerging from such Universities) are the envy of the world.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely seemed very true during my PhD. Many of my peers had PhD or professor parents (I don't). I think the primary reasons for the increase are valuing the career through parents and having a mentor who knows the admissions game. I blundered my first couple times applying because I lacked good mentorship in preparing my applications.

> good mentorship in preparing my applications I don't get this. Why does one need mentorship in filling out an application. I got mine in the mail, filled them out, and sent them in. It never occurred to me I needed someone to guide me. My dad (MIT) did tell me many years earlier what was necessary to get into MIT: 1. straight A's 2. high SAT scores 3. an achievement in extracurricular activities (MIT rejected me.)…

> I don't get this. Why does one need mentorship in filling out an application. I got mine in the mail, filled them out, and sent them in. It never occurred to me I needed someone to guide me.

> My dad (MIT) did tell me many years earlier what was necessary to get into MIT: 1. straight A's 2. high SAT scores 3. an achievement in extracurricular activities

> (MIT rejected me.)

Aren't you confirming that mentorship is needed?

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