It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#231

Post by rkk3 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

zumu wrote: post #222

rkk3 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. "A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1] "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, eth…

> They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families…

> Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into.

Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement.

> Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families.

These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#232

Post by rkk3 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

handrous wrote: post #207

rkk3 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the author's thesis? I skimmed and read and re-read, but didn't figure it out. Same. I think they are hoping Biden will put more money into public schools and stop preferential tax treatments for the large endowments. > It's not a surprise. Cotton and his party see Ivy League universities as institutions of the political opposition, whom they attack and want to punish and diminish. Tom Cotton... Harvard Uni…

Forget elite universities: IIRC exactly one of the last eight Presidential candidates (from the two parties that matters) in the general election didn't attend a private prep high school. (Hillary Clinton, is the one who didn't). [EDIT] I know Cotton isn't one of them, I'm just pointing out that this elitism sure as hell appears to be a driving factor in who's on top in both parties.

Don't think Biden went to prep school, He didn't even go to an Ivy. So 7/9?

Edit: Correction I forgot McCain

Bush - Philips Academy

Gore - St Albans School

Kerry - St Pauls

Obama - Punahou School (On scholarship!)

McCain - Episcopal High School

Romney - Cranbrook School

Trump - New York Military Academy

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#233

Post by joebadmo » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

rejectedandsad wrote: post #196

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company I work for now pays substantially more than Google/Facebook/et. al and most people on my team are from random state schools, many with no experience at FAANG. You can certainly make millions from a pre-IPO startup (and I have 2nd degree knowledge of many people that did get rich off IPOs), but you're not making that at the Google of today. I'm sorry you feel that way about your past. You should consider s…

> The company I work for now pays substantially more than Google/Facebook/et. al and most people on my team are from random state schools That's...interesting, because it's certainly not the way the LinkedIn pages of most folks at Hudson River Trading, 2Sigma, Stripe or Citadel would imply (I did get into Citadel, but for a 2nd tier role). Of course, it would make sense for Netflix, which has a more Amazon-like hirin…

Hi, I'm Asian, graduated from a state school with a humanities degree, worked my way from tech support at a tiny startup into engineering, and now (several jobs later) work as a software eng at Stripe. I've met plenty of other engineers here with non-traditional backgrounds.

I think you're: 1. way too hard on yourself. If you broaden your scope just a bit, you'll see that Amazon is an elite engineering organization. 2. buying way too much into phony credentialism. I don't make a big deal out of it, but personally I consider being able to hold my own engineering-wise while having gone to a state school as a badge of honor. 3. giving way too much headspace to comparing yourself with others in envy. There's always someone better, smarter, etc. I find them around me all the time. I choose to see them as mentors and role models, rather than rivals or competitors.

> I should have done research in high school and I should have gotten at least two first author papers to a top conference in undergrad - instead I got 2 2nd author papers to medium tier conferences because I could never come up with any compelling research ideas. All of my work is ultimately meaningless because it just wasn’t enough - it’s extremely depressing.

I don't think you're ever going to be satisfied if this is your definition of success. You should try to find meaning in the work itself, not in the recognition or status that comes from it.

Good luck!

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#234

Post by bo1024 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #55

What is the author's thesis? I skimmed and read and re-read, but didn't figure it out. It's well known that elite universities are elitist in their admissions and have over-large endowments. And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. And it's well known that the rest of the U.S. educational system is underfunded. > Sen. Tom Cotton, of all political leaders, suggeste…

I also couldn't follow. It seemed to jump between topics without making a connection or using them to make a central point that I could see.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#235

Post by jordan_curve » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #19

sokoloff wrote: post #11

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

From the NYT: Working sons of working fathers are, on average, 2.7 times as likely as the rest of the population to have the same job but only two times as likely to have the same job as their working mothers, according to an analysis by The New York Times, one of the first to look at mothers and daughters in addition to fathers and sons. Daughters are 1.8 times as likely to have the same job as their mothers and 1.7…

I’d be interested to see what the rate increase is for Athletes. I think of landing a top research as the equivalent of getting a spot on an NBA team (or other major sports team).

Both are extremely competitive with only a select few spots in the entire country. Additionally, starting at a very young age is a huge advantage for both athletes and aspiring academics.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#236

Post by BurningFrog » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #176

BurningFrog wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to find seemingly well informed smart people who claim that, and also those who claim the opposite. Outside physics, there is always a study that supports whatever you want to believe, so we can all keep believing whatever feels good, while being supported by Science! I like to think I'm different. But odds are I'm not...

The reason why the SAT is "going away" as you noted, or at least the cited reason, is precisely what I noted. If you want to take the position that there is no truth (or even just a better approximation thereof), that "we can all just believe what we want to believe", then there's no way to ever progress on such matters.

I'm absolutely not a "there is no truth truther".

More noticing the prevalence of confidently certain people for every opinion.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#237

Post by zumu » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:09 AM UTC

rkk3 wrote: post #231

zumu wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families…

> Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. > Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because…

> These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted.

Unless there are specific reforms to talk about it's hard to argue further. However, clearly the "Ivy League Cartel" is colluding to limit enrollment of poorer people.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#238

Post by sohei » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #11

> Faculty members at prestigious universities are 50 times more likely than the average person to have a parent with a Ph.D. American meritocracy has become a complex, inefficient, and rigged system conferring its graces on ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families. What’s the ratio in other fields of top achievement for kids to follow in their parents’ footsteps? It’s entirely unsurprising that a…

> It’s equally unsurprising that the ambitious children of highly educated and prosperous families themselves pursue such a similar path and achieve similar outcomes.

That kind of misses the point. You want to train as many effective engineers and researchers as you can. The point of the article is that most Ivies can comfortably train more people, but doing so would reduce some of the scarcity "value" of an Ivy League degree. Who cares? The goal is building.

Claude Shannon and Kelly Johnson both got their start at Michigan. The Michigan model of "train as many engineers as you can without compromising substance" is a great. If the Ivies want to create artificial scarcity to avoid "diluting brand value", then their ability to access public subsidies should be curtailed. Give it to Michigan instead.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#239

Post by scarmig » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:16 AM UTC

yaboy wrote: post #74

scarmig wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College admissions' treatment of Asian American applicants is the most explicit form of institutional racism in the US today. It's the kind of racist discrimination that, if applied against any other group, would get the perpetrator sued to oblivion.

Clearly you’ve never been pulled over by a cop for a DWB — Driving While Black.

Explicit vs impactful.

All told, I'd rather get into an inferior school over discriminatory treatment by police for life, with an outside chance of a genuinely horrific situation occuring that'd cost me my life.

But the discrimination against AA applicants is institutional and intentional in a way that police discrimination against blacks is not. For AAs, the solution is simple: stop discriminating against someone just because they're Asian. The question of how to get more equitable policing is endlessly discussed and debated, because it's subtle and relies on personal psychological biases, not policies intentionally constructed to discriminate.

Re: It’s time to break up the Ivy League cartel

#240

Post by colinmhayes » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #162

zumu wrote: post #131

I think this whole debate is centered on the shallow idea that "going to an Ivy League" in and of itself is what ordains "elite-ness". To unravel this, you first must consider the actual value proposition of Ivy Leagues relative to other schools. Firstly, undergrad in America, especially at private schools like the Ivy Leagues, is more a daycare for rich kids, than it is a place of scholarship and learning. The educa…

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher s…

Fraternizing with the rich is the real value add that ivies provide. The education is nice, but it's absolutely not what makes those schools the best. The brightest poor people attend in order to gain access to said rich and powerful young adults.