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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

economist.com

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#271

Post by metacritic12 »

ddalex wrote: post #142
238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

On the other hand the people in EU are happier, have better social protection, better benefits, better health systems, better consumer protection, better application of rules and laws, they make for more productive employees. Do the shareholders get as rich as fast as in the hyperactive US economy? Not, but the society functions better. I very much prefer the EU.

Uh I think only the consumer protection, benefits, and social protection are clearly true (taken out of direct pay).

Rule of law and happier are debatable.

Productivity seems false if you define productivity as economic output versus just a redefinition of self-rated relaxation on the job.

At a certain point it gets incredibly subjective like which country's citizens are more awesome.

And honestly good on you for being in the EU and liking the EU more. I'm sure a lot of people in the USA feel the same about the USA. The entire point of democracies is that people should change their government to their liking.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#272

Post by tmpz22 »

kortilla wrote: post #251
thijsc wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree with you that the EU's efforts to replicate a SV style startup ecosystem are misguided and ineffective. The comment however was about the EU not being a good place to start a business. Personally I ignore all that stuff you mentioned. We just focus on building a good product. And the EU is a great place for that. I have many acquaintances that have built a multi-million euro business in the last decad…

That’s not “a thriving tech scene” then.

If VCs making money is your definition of a successful tech scene you sir or ma’am are utterly lost. You think Jobs or Gates were sweating over VC returns instead of drooling over the innovation and egregious wealth and cultural change they conceived?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#273

Post by devoutsalsa »

contriban wrote: post #132
devoutsalsa wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of frictionless employment labor movement… In the USA I once called in sick on a Monday & was retroactively fired the previous Friday.

It depends, were you hired the previous Thursday?

Nope. I’d been there for 6 months.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#274

Post by Someone »

hermitdev wrote: post #144
contriban wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. My parents own a restaurant in Italy and if the authorities come it’s a € 2000/3000 fine for sure. For a small seasonal business that’s substantial. For example if you give a receipt and the customer misplaces it on the way out and can’t find anymore, you’re liable for tax evasion. Never mind that the POS has its own registry they can check. For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t…

> For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t tax you.” Honest question: is this actually the law, or a tactic of an official seeking a bribe?

In Italy, that’s law because there used to be/is (don’t know which is true) a culture where, some/many cafes and restaurants let some/many visitors pay ‘under the table’, dodging VAT taxes.

That law requires shipowners to give a receipt and customers to keep it. Customers can be fined if, a few meters outside the shop, a policeman asks them to show their receipt, and the policeman has evidence they bought something or some service (https://www.accountingbolla.com/blog/sales-tax-in-italy-iva)

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#275

Post by onion2k »

rsj_hn wrote: post #242
onion2k wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should society optimize for how easy it is to start a business?

Because societies that promote innovation have higher quality of life and bless the entire world with technological advancement, while their own population benefits from lower prices, more goods, productivity growth, more jobs, more opportunity, and more fairness. It's strange how quick people are to condemn monopolies and yet in the same breath insist that starting businesses is not a social good. Of course it's a s…

According to the World Happiness Report for 2020 (which is a well-regarded and well-researched report as far as I know), 9 of the top 10 countries in the world for people's quality of life and well-being are all in the EU. The USA comes in 18th.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2020_re...

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#276

Post by zingar »

bennybob wrote: post #227
reader_mode wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO.

At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#277

Post by kortilla »

Barrin92 wrote: post #99

As usual the article is almost exclusively concerned with market capitalization as an indicator of economic success. Countries like Germany are dominated by small and middle-class, family owned business. 'Big corporate' is indeed more successful in the US or China but it's just one model to manage an economy and I don't think it's that great. One of the most important points is also buried at the end of the article >…

“No big companies” is a fine policy for things that don’t require a lot of money to innovate on. A small business will never be capable of producing anything like the iPhone for example. Pushing the envelope on tech is very expensive and this is where Europe’s current model doesn’t work.

If it’s just companies reselling existing things or incremental tech (e.g. grocers, telecoms, utilities, airlines, etc), then smaller companies are nice.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#278

Post by codeisawesome »

systemvoltage wrote: post #100
brainless wrote: post #95

I am from India and for the first 8-10 years of my post-college life I drank all the "glory" reporting of the American style of doing business. I tried doing it myself. I fell apart, suffered silently for years. Moved to Germany, went through counseling at the end of that period. Learnt that life is a lot more than silly startup games. No matter what anyone tells me, I have seen it myself first hand - I want a happie…

I am sorry you had such an experience. Startup life has pros and cons, and situationally varied. I've worked on several startup ventures of my own and nothing in the world is more satisfying than "skin in the game". It feels real and impactful. I didn't work more than 8-10 hours a day. People using your products and gratification of the fact that you/your-team built is so much more real to me. Friendships I've formed…

I have no idea why you are so heavily downvoted for giving a rational response countering with your own experiences…?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#279

Post by oytis »

yoz-y wrote: post #195
apatters wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

The article, most people here, and the reality disagrees with that. The point is that all the giants are elsewhere. Case in point as mentioned elsewhere: we actually have ISP competition here.

In reality there is some lag until effects are seen. Europe's economy has been huge very recently, and it's still significant, but the trend is that it's significance is shrinking as it can't keep up with American and Asian growth

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#280

Post by SOMA_BOFH »

kortilla wrote: post #245
coldtea wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that we have better internet for cheaper prices than the US, for example. Between national and state debts, Trump and the Dems electing a zombie, rampant crime, police brutality 10x that of the EU, no work-life balance, average citizens that are the laughing stock of the West education wise, huge inequality, depression and the opioeid epidemic, crumbling infrastructure, the largest incarceration rate per capita in…

> how does your innovation work for you? Well it has produced the top tech companies and (most of the) top research universities in the world. So pretty well.

anecdotal
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