Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#361

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:28 PM UTC

magicsmoke wrote: post #330

lotsofpulp wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are the things that motivates them, and what do they themselves want to do in life? I suspect quite a few people are looking at the odds of achieving various goals, and simply changing the goals. Such as owning a home in desirable areas, or having kids if you cannot afford a food school district or a job that allows you to be home for dinner. Or if you have experienced income instability, and you do not feel c…

> Or if you have experienced income instability, and you do not feel comfortable bringing children into the world. Yet poorer developing nations have higher birth rates than developed nations. Is it because they have lower expectations for what their children need to live a "good" life, that they just have more hope that things will work out somehow, or that they somehow don't care about these concerns?

> Is it because they have lower expectations for what their children need to live a "good" life

Yes, I think the minimally acceptable quality of life is certainly relative.

> that they just have more hope that things will work out somehow

Possibly, if everyone around you is on an upward trajectory, I can see that changing people’s calculus.

> or that they somehow don't care about these concerns?

I think a big factor is how (financially) independent women are and what kind of access to birth control (especially IUDs) they have. I suspect many of the women who have or had 3+ children would not have if they had similar options to those in developed countries today.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#362

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #357

pcbro141 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, on mainstream TV/articles about declining marriage/birthrates in the West, it's common to see criticisms about modern Western men. How women can't find life partners because men aren't masculine enough anymore, don't want to grow up, don't get educated etc. But very rarely do you see any criticism or even questioning about modern Western women and what men want in a woman. Only what women want. The…

> Degrees don't make you marriage material. This gets said so much on fora with men who regard themselves as “redpilled”, but it makes no sense to me personally. As a bookish and arts-inclined person, so much of my worldview, the things that occupy my thoughts during the day, has been formed by the canon of literature, music, films. No woman would seem dating and marriage material to me if she weren’t similarly erudi…

[deleted]

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#363

Post by bluescrn » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #257

izend wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't always work, video games are probably the cheapest addicting entertainment out there. Doesn't take much income to just survive and play video games all day long.

I highly doubt that video games are solely to blame. I was quite addicted to video games until my early 20s, but I eventually understood that gaming falls down the priority list as you take on more responsibilities in life. My friends were the same.

Gaming is just good escapism and a way to pass time. Before gaming, it’d be TV, or reading fiction.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#364

Post by irowe » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

pcbro141 wrote: post #331

belorn wrote: post #269

What are the things that motivates them, and what do they themselves want to do in life? I ask this because much of the undertone in the article and in this thread is about the failure of meeting the gender role expectations that are put on young men. Do they have a job and a car? Have they studied hard so they can get a good job in order to support a wife and kid? Culture in the last several decades have hammered do…

On a related note, on mainstream TV/articles about declining marriage/birthrates in the West, it's common to see criticisms about modern Western men. How women can't find life partners because men aren't masculine enough anymore, don't want to grow up, don't get educated etc. But very rarely do you see any criticism or even questioning about modern Western women and what men want in a woman. Only what women want. The…

I think what you said is a very unforgiving and slightly misogynistic way of describing what has been spelled out many other places before: women are increasingly opting for more education or career advancement in lieu of becoming homemakers. They don’t make those decisions for the benefit of men. They don’t have to. This has little to do with observed femininity or the “attractiveness” of getting a degree.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#365

Post by jeofken » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

irowe wrote: post #364

pcbro141 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, on mainstream TV/articles about declining marriage/birthrates in the West, it's common to see criticisms about modern Western men. How women can't find life partners because men aren't masculine enough anymore, don't want to grow up, don't get educated etc. But very rarely do you see any criticism or even questioning about modern Western women and what men want in a woman. Only what women want. The…

I think what you said is a very unforgiving and slightly misogynistic way of describing what has been spelled out many other places before: women are increasingly opting for more education or career advancement in lieu of becoming homemakers. They don’t make those decisions for the benefit of men. They don’t have to. This has little to do with observed femininity or the “attractiveness” of getting a degree.

“Unforgiving” and “misogynistic” are words unrelated to whether something is true or false - just something to keep in mind

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#366

Post by thepasswordis » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

cjohnson318 wrote: post #321

thepasswordis wrote: post #291

Is anybody advocating for them or encouraging them in any way? I can’t think of a single group which aims to highlight men, uplift men, and encourage masculine behavior. These guys grew up in a school system of almost entirely women teachers, and popular media tells them that if they are successful in any way, it is due to oppression. It’s no wonder why they’re not succeeding. We spent the last 15 years telling them…

Oh please. There's nothing wrong with the way female teachers teach.

Is that what I said? I said that these young men don't have strong positive male role models.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#367

Post by whiskyant » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

Cyph0n wrote: post #252

whiskyant wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the parents fault for coddling them. If they kicked them out at 18, the nephews would definitely need to work and may realize the importance of having a better job/career.

As you noted, it is likely that something went seriously wrong with raising them (coddling, over-helping, etc.). But you don’t need to be “kicked out” to start working on building your life and your career.

I meant being kicked out if the parents clearly see 0 desire from the child to further their education or get a job. I don't think there's anything wrong with people living with their parents if they're going to school or working.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#368

Post by leetcrew » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

sergiomattei wrote: post #347

codemac wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PERSONAL RANT YOU DON'T NEED TO READ, BUT I NEED TO WRITE: I will add something to your son's point: being independent from my family was more important to me than saving money, especially if their loans are only 4 years away from being paid off. In fact, it bootstrapped all kinds of good behaviors around how to socialize with others, make friends, find a job, fix my own toilet, do laundry, pay taxes, find a new hair…

As someone in a similar situation as OP's son (although undergrad) and looking to move out... Independence and personal space MATTER, please consider how your son may feel about living close to you. It may hurt, but it's important to understand the mindset behind the decision.

agreed. I moved out as soon as I could support myself. it wasn't because I hated my parents; they're pretty good as far as parents go. I feel like it's hard to actually be an adult when you live with your parents.

as an example, my dad used to always ask when he could expect me home when I went out. not being nosy, he just had a certain "night lock up" routine for the house. it wasn't an unreasonable question to get from a man who was paying for my housing and food, but it was a question I no longer wanted to answer at that point in my life.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#369

Post by nradov » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

tuatoru wrote: post #316

JPKab wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that video game addiction contributes to this kind of thing, or is the video game addiction a coping mechanism? I think video game addiction is an incredibly underreported and highly destructive phenomenon. I encounter (and had to fire a few days ago) lots of young men who don't appear to ever sleep, and are highly unproductive, unmotivated, and constantly distracted. The kid I had to fire (I call him ki…

I think "is it a cause or a symptom?" is a valid question and deserves serious thought. Upvoted. I worried about my own son playing video games incessantly through his teens and twenties, but now at 28 he has been holding down a stable job for a year and I have got good reports from his employer. He's still a loner IRL though. Would I worry so much if he were a gym rat or ultramarathoner-- an "exercise addict"? Good…

You should worry about anyone with a sedentary lifestyle, regardless of whether they play video games or not. This has serious health consequences later in life.

But competing in a lot of ultramarathons isn't necessarily healthy for the long term either. In extreme cases athletes end up with heart muscle scarring and calcification. Somewhat shorter distances might be better. Everything in moderation.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#370

Post by angmarsbane » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

throwaway803453 wrote: post #320

UncleOxidant wrote: post #113

I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that lasted more than a month or so. Neither ever learned to drive even though they live in a town with little or no public transit. They haven't had any education beyond high school. They seem wholly unprepared to navigate life without their parents. It's a slow motion…

My 45 year old sister is that way now and to a lesser extent my older brother was too. I lost _decades_ of sleep over their situation. Ultimately I didn't know anything when I left home at 18 and I figured it out. Other people can too. How long does it take to learn how to drive, open a checking account, cook, pay bill, etc. after all ? You can learn these things privately over the Internet so there's no longer a soc…

I want to comment on your brother’s reflection that he was in pain, bitter, and resentful that he did not have useful knowledge/skills and needed your help.

There is an incredible amount of shame and self-directed anger and fear in men who have found themselves in this position.

All of those feelings are heavy to carry, but they can be shoved aside and ignored by constant entertainment (video games, tv binges etc). Shoved aside they don’t hurt as bad.

But those feelings don’t go away. They get bigger as each year goes on & they flare up when confronted with having to do something they aren’t capable of doing (or think they aren’t capable) like moving out, getting a job, getting a better job, having an adult relationship etc.

Those feelings of inadequacy have to be taken on and grace & forgiveness has to be granted to oneself in order for them to spread their wings / leave the nest and not come back.

For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from?