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Vivaldi 4.0

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Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#201

Post by scroot »

55555 wrote: post #158
oblio wrote: post #3

Vivaldi Mail? That took a while :-D Vivaldi is developed by a team created by the former Opera founder and CEO. Vivaldi kind of tries to re-create the spirit of Opera, but I think it's going to be too hard to do it. For those who didn't use it, Opera was first a paid browser (which limited its reach), then an ad-supported browser (which again limited its reach). It then finally became a free browser but by then it wa…

I use a browser probably 12 hours per day. Maybe there's enough people willing to pay a dollar or two a month for that to be a possible business model again.

Though I'm not sure what they are up to exactly, isn't this what The Browser Company [1] is trying to do?

[1] https://thebrowser.company/

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#202

Post by CaptainZapp »

awful_waffle wrote: post #184
CaptainZapp wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with Firefox? It's an honest question, since as a user I really love it. Is it the 'dev-friendly', which Firefox lacks?

FF is my daily driver (since Quantum in '17) but I've found it really just isn't holding up these days: • Profiling functions between Chrome/FF reveals that Chrome is frequently considerably faster (usually 60%+) • During WebGL work I'll often hit blue screens around memory management (this seems to be a relatively recent development) • Similarly, trying to profile a WebRTC application with video feeds will consisten…

Thanks. You make a few interesting points. It just doesn't seem to hit me so bad as an average user.

I actually liked the UI they implemented in Android. Alas, I seem to be in a minority

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#203

Post by frr149 »

From the post:

(...)we offer Vivaldi Translate, a built-in, privacy-friendly translation feature, powered by Lingvanex and hosted by Vivaldi, keeping translations out of the reach of companies like Google or Microsoft.

Now I'm supposed to trust Vivaldi instead of Google or MS... Stopped reading right there.

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#204

Post by awful_waffle »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #202
awful_waffle wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FF is my daily driver (since Quantum in '17) but I've found it really just isn't holding up these days: • Profiling functions between Chrome/FF reveals that Chrome is frequently considerably faster (usually 60%+) • During WebGL work I'll often hit blue screens around memory management (this seems to be a relatively recent development) • Similarly, trying to profile a WebRTC application with video feeds will consisten…

Thanks. You make a few interesting points. It just doesn't seem to hit me so bad as an average user. I actually liked the UI they implemented in Android. Alas, I seem to be in a minority

I actually quite like the mobile browser, it hasn't really given me any issues yet. The fact it supports add-ons like uBlock is awesome.

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#205

Post by handrous »

toyg wrote: post #167
salmo wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s weird how this cycles. Firebird/Firefox was originally an amazingly light browser (discounting some niche Linux ones that embedded Gecko). Then it got huge, and Chrome was amazing. And it seemed impossible for FF to be able to work out the technical debt. Now Chrome often makes the fan kick in on my MBP and Firefox is lighter again in CPU and memory. I think Safari is probably best in this regard on this machine…

> I think Safari is probably best in this regard on this machine, but I just don’t enjoy using it Safari always gives me the feeling of being too basic. The extension ecosystem is very small, and settings panels try their hardest not to actually give you any options beyond the essential ones. It's a browser for people who endure the web, not enjoy it.

Safari's respect for battery life and ability to limit the harm a misbehaving/disrespectful tab (which is lots of them, these days) can do to overall system responsiveness are what keep me using it, and those definitely help me enjoy the web, to the extent that it can be enjoyed anymore. It's the best at both of those of any major browser I'm aware of, and in fact I don't know any that are even close—something like Surf might match or beat it, I guess, being very small and using the WebKit as the rendering engine, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[EDIT] but yes, FF and Chrome/Chromium destroy it on a feature basis. I just value those other things so much, and both of those options are so bad at those things, that I prefer Safari anyway.

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#206

Post by rasz »

grishka wrote: post #98
lucideer wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they'll fix it in two years Seems pretty quick, at least compared to Chromium / Firefox ;) > you don't get to know its status in the meantime Toward the end of Opera's life (pre v15) either an employee or a member of the community (can't remember which) did actually set up a public bug tracker tracking the status of publicly-reported bugs. It didn't show comments or anything like that: just the original bug descrip…

Yeah you can still ask people who have access to look up the status of a bug for you[1]. It just feels so needlessly convoluted. Since they're already using Jira, it shouldn't be too hard to set it up with proper access controls so you could see your own tickets, at least. They must have some reason to not do this. [1] https://habr.com/ru/company/vivaldi/blog/561834/#comment_231... (in Russian)

Amount of years old bugs with zero activity while they keep working on new features.

Opera/Vivaldi CEO is really adamant about hiding both staff and user counts. Vivaldi even removed itself from User Agent string.

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#207

Post by starik36 »

rasz wrote: post #206
grishka wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah you can still ask people who have access to look up the status of a bug for you[1]. It just feels so needlessly convoluted. Since they're already using Jira, it shouldn't be too hard to set it up with proper access controls so you could see your own tickets, at least. They must have some reason to not do this. [1] https://habr.com/ru/company/vivaldi/blog/561834/#comment_231... (in Russian)

Amount of years old bugs with zero activity while they keep working on new features. Opera/Vivaldi CEO is really adamant about hiding both staff and user counts. Vivaldi even removed itself from User Agent string.

If memory serves, they removed the user agent because one of the Google properties was serving it substandard HTML/JS even though they use the Chromium engine.

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#208

Post by kitd »

amitport wrote: post #92
kitd wrote: post #86

I use Vivaldi regularly for one reason: my company has disabled access to the developer tools on Chrome and FF. With Vivaldi (being Chromium) I have full access again! Just don't tell them I told you ...

what was the company's reasoning to disable access to the developer tools on Chrome and FF? why?

I don't have the precise wording to hand but it was along the lines of "security, protecting assets, etc, etc"

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#209

Post by SkyMarshal »

oblio wrote: post #3

Vivaldi Mail? That took a while :-D Vivaldi is developed by a team created by the former Opera founder and CEO. Vivaldi kind of tries to re-create the spirit of Opera, but I think it's going to be too hard to do it. For those who didn't use it, Opera was first a paid browser (which limited its reach), then an ad-supported browser (which again limited its reach). It then finally became a free browser but by then it wa…

> It had its own, super fast, rendering engine (I forget its name, Presto?). It had a built in email client, feed reader, calendar (unfortunately with no Exchange or Gmail integration), a notes app, a powerful download manager and even a Bitorrent client. And a TON of features and UI flexibility.

And don’t forget its MDI interface [1] which made using all those features a joy and is still today better than all the tab implementations of modern browsers (for power users at least).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple-document_interface

Re: Vivaldi 4.0

#210

Post by rasz »

taylodl wrote: post #156
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to clarify in case someone's wondering, a browser named Opera still exists and gets updated now, but neither the people behind it nor the underlying technology are the same as in the old Opera this post is referring to. As an old-time classic Opera user since version 5 or so, I do use the current Opera because I find it somewhat better than Chrome (it has more built-in stuff, including mouse gestures, Whatsapp/T…

As someone who now uses Vivaldi as their daily driver I can vouch that it's a bit slow, especially on older hardware. Obviously it's not intolerable, but it would be nice to see some improvements in that area.

If you ever get curious how can UI be so slow, after all "its just js, js is fast", here is how they handle closing browser Tabs currently:

https://www.reddit.com/r/vivaldibrowser/comments/nrasof/fix_...

tldr: Tab bar is just a DIV full of SPANs, one SPAN per Tab. Pages are in a list of DIVs containing iframes. Switching a Tab is a simple process of moving "active" class from one SPAN to another and changing style of one iframe to "visibility: hidden; z-index: -1;" while another one gets "visibility: inherit; z-index: initial;". So far so ~good. So how does Vivaldi handle Tab close? You would guess closing a Tab would entail

    - switching iframe visibility away from Tab being closed first - instant visual feedback for the user
    - removing SPAN representing Tab we want closed
    - maybe fixing widths of remaining SPANs
What actually happens is a horror show normally reserved for second semester CS students trying OOP for the first time. List of all Tabs gets traversed multiple times, most of them rewritten couple of times, everything generating individual DOM changes.

10 Tabs open and you close the first one = ~30 DOM Reflows.

100 Tabs open and you close two in the middle = ~300 DOM Reflows.

100 Tabs open and you close first 10 = ~3000 DOM Reflows.

Stuttering UI is the staple of Vivaldi, codebase is full of functions running in linear/polynomial time to the number of Tabs open/Tab position on the list, in places where O(1) is trivial. Vivaldi is a browser that used to Resize contents of every single Tab opened when you resized its window - resizing was slower the more Tabs you had in Tab bar :o, going fullscreen could take 10 seconds.

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