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The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

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Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#211

Post by jtbayly »

arrosenberg wrote: post #95
harryf wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's shady to provide that funding. What I'm saying is it demonstrates conflict of interest. Last year in May 5 2020 Fauci dismissed the idea that the virus came from a lab that his own organisation was providing funds to - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anthony-fauci-wuhan-lab-coronav... Whether or not anything shady was happening, the conflict of interest is clear.

It's not a conflict of interest because Dr. Fauci wasn't gaining anything. The agency he is head of is specifically interested in infectious disease and has a large budget for grants. $120K per year pays for a couple plate of genetic samples and tech time to run them. Maybe in China you can run a few more for that cost, I don't know. As head of that agency, it's also his job to share his professional opinion with the…

It’s an obvious conflict of interest. To be making public judgments about whether a lab could be responsible when you are partly responsible for what that lab has done is precisely the definition of conflict of interest.

It’s called self-policing elsewhere, and anybody would see the conflict of interest immediately at FAANG, for example. Was FB causing teen depression? Researcher says no. (Then it turns out the researcher had done consulting work for FB or had been in contact with FB, advocating that they use the timeline feed to run experiments on unsuspecting teens…

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#212

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

briefcomment wrote: post #203
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think the moral of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is? Is it a lesson for the villagers, or a lesson for a (potential) liar?

It's a story. Mature people can act smartly and morally even when they are annoyed If I had to pick a "moral" of that fable, it's to never let your guard down, no matter what.

I think you've missed the moral. It's not about being annoyed. It's about making a choice on whether to dismiss someone's claims because of their past lies.

Sure, you can make the case for always ignoring past lies, and always evaluating every claim based on current evidence. The reason the story exists is to try to illustrate how most humans actually behave, despite there being a preferable response.

In addition, the evidence for the lab leak theory wasn't strong back when Trump became the mouthpiece for it. There wasn't much of a reason, even if you evaluated the current evidence for what could be another one of his thousands of documented lies, to take it particularly seriously.

That situation might be changing now, and we are seeing that in the media and culture right now, as we respond to new evidence, or more specifically, lack of other expected evidence.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#213

Post by calsy »

generalizations wrote: post #173
triceratops wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "do your own research" How? I barely have enough time to do my day job. You think I have the time or expertise to research the origins of a virus? Where does it end? Do I grow my own food? Make my own clothes? Build my own car after mining ore, smelting it and doing a million other things?

It's a statement of consequences; just "the way the world works." Trust the experts if you've no time for more, but this is the likely result. Put time into your own research, and maybe you won't be caught off guard.

Yes trust the experts if you cant run your own experts. You know the people who can be easily influenced by funding sources, political pressure and their own need for validation and success. If there is anything we have learnt is that 'Authority is Truth' and no one in positions of Authority or 'experts' has ever deceived the public.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#214

Post by reedjosh »

triceratops wrote: post #153
generalizations wrote: post #60

This is why people say "do your own research". Because trusting some other authority will end badly, just like this.

> "do your own research" How? I barely have enough time to do my day job. You think I have the time or expertise to research the origins of a virus? Where does it end? Do I grow my own food? Make my own clothes? Build my own car after mining ore, smelting it and doing a million other things?

At the very least, ditch ad funded media.

When you're not the product, you'll get more truth.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#215

Post by actuator »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #201
actuator wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling it "the china virus", as the former president was wont to do, was labelled racist/bigoted/nationalistic While the racist violence that happened was deplorable, it is entirely amusing to me that we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant but not call it the China virus/flu. The same publications like Guardian which did not use the term China virus/flu because it was considered racist…

Trump's use of the term "the China virus" was clearly, absolutely, unambiguously to blame China for the virus/pandemic. By the time the variants started to emerge, the virus' biological structure and mechanism was sufficiently well understood that seeking to blame any particular locale for the emergence of a variant was seen to be pointless. About pointless as blaming China for the virus itself appeared to be at the…

I agree that Trump's use was to definitely please his supporter base and blame China. But except for some racist bigots, I really doubt calling it the China virus/flu means that someone is trying to blame Chinese people for it, just like you are arguing for variants.

My point was, the same concerns people had for not using the country name on virus were applicable for variants too. If we chose one standard for the virus, we should have kept the same for variants too, after all there are some variants which are considered more dangerous than the others.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#216

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

mc32 wrote: post #187
breakyerself wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the only person in my life expressing an interest in this was my mom and she got it from the radio program coast to coast. Which is almost entirely crackpot conspiracy UFO bullshit. Still. I didn't tell her it couldn't have come from the lab. I said there isn't really enough evidence to conclude that. I think that was the mainstream opinion. Not that it couldn't have come from the lab, but that there wasn't en…

I don't doubt your account --but that's a distraction. There were many people in bioscience, virology, etc. who said it was possible and should not be discounted, but those people were hounded and shut up.

Shutting them up doesn't appear to have been particularly successful. The lab leak theory has continued to be discussed in all kinds of media and many parts of the culture over the last year.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#217

Post by AbrahamParangi »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #199
bartart wrote: post #2

This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life. I'd ask everyone to please read it because it is incredible. One thing I did not realize is that US researchers who conducted gain of function research tried to downplay and discredit the possibility of the virus originating from the wuhan lab. There was an anti-lab theory Lancet statement signed by scientists, and "Daszak had not only signed but organize…

"This is the most shocking article I have ever read in my life." Dare we inquire how long you have lived. :) But seriously, I am not sure that the scientific community, nor all national governments, have reached a clear consensus on gain of function research. It is still a developing issue. Welcome to be corrected on that. Such research could potentially help to prevent pandemics as well as accidentally start them. T…

Gain of function research outside of hyper-secure settings is, frankly, idiotic. It’s massively more dangerous than criticality experiments because of the potential for exponential spread.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#218

Post by thatswrong0 »

ALittleLight wrote: post #82

One thing I've noticed a lot in articles like this one is how they kind of "both sides" the issue. This article says "With disreputable wing nuts on one side of them and scornful experts on the other" - to make it seem like both the right wing cranks and the experts were wrong here. Right wing cranks way-overstepped by calling it a "bioweapon" without evidence and experts understepped by assuming it was natural witho…

> My point is that the right wing cranks actually come out looking pretty good on this topic - as far as I can tell. I think it's wrong for this article and others to start out, and dedicate space in the opening of their argument, to try and balance things by saying, essentially, "Yes, maybe the experts were wrong here, but so were the crazy right-wing people."

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Worse is that said broken clock embraced thoroughly xenophobic language that almost certainly led to a rise in anti-asian violence. It unfortunately made it easier for the public to discount these arguments because it was impossible to tell whether they were being made in good faith, not to mention that these arguments were often made out of a (justified) distrust of the Chinese government rather than an objective understanding of the known facts.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#219

Post by zakkeg »

ALittleLight wrote: post #82

One thing I've noticed a lot in articles like this one is how they kind of "both sides" the issue. This article says "With disreputable wing nuts on one side of them and scornful experts on the other" - to make it seem like both the right wing cranks and the experts were wrong here. Right wing cranks way-overstepped by calling it a "bioweapon" without evidence and experts understepped by assuming it was natural witho…

I assume the author, and others referenced in the article, don't want to admit the other "side" was correct. Nor do they want to admit their "side" was wrong.

Yeah, it is wrong to claim it was certainly a lab leak when there is little evidence. However, it is also wrong to claim it certainly wasn't a leak for that same reason. Let's just hope the truth is found, and we learn from it.

It's hard to do, but simply being able to say "I was wrong" or "I messed up" would make the world a better place. This is actually something I've been working on.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#220

Post by henearkr »

Throwawayaerlei wrote: post #202
lamontcg wrote: post #185

> Wade devoted a full section to the “furin cleavage site,” a distinctive segment of SARS-CoV-2’s genetic code that makes the virus more infectious by allowing it to efficiently enter human cells. > Within the scientific community, one thing leapt off the page. Wade quoted one of the world’s most famous microbiologists, Dr. David Baltimore, saying that he believed the furin cleavage site “was the smoking gun for the…

The A gravamen of the SARS-CoV-2 furin cleavage site claim is that it's not aligned like others in the coronaviruses you cite.

I'd love more information if you have.

Because per se it does not prove the claim of bioengineering.

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