Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#961

Post by mars009 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #410

ashtonkem wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commutes also cost the one thing we can't get back; time.

Sometimes people say they're making a time trade off for more money, and plan to use that money to buy more time. While money is fungible, time is not. You can't buy more time with your kids while they're young if they're already grown. You can't buy more time with someone who has passed away. And you can't buy your way out of missed opportunities in your personal life, once they've gone they're gone.

This. Also the time you are using when you are young or what you can do with your time when you are young != to the same time spent when you are old.

I remember traveling abroad, spending the night at hostels, waking up at 5AM and hitting tons of museums and walking miles and miles per day to sight see, and visit everything. 65 years old will probably not be able to pull that off

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#962

Post by mars009 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

simfree wrote: post #250

luffapi wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maintaining a remote team is significantly more management and communication overhead than simply having people in one place. I’ve managed both types of teams and haven’t found this to be the case at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Asynchronous communication as the norm is a lot less demanding on ICs and managers. In person meetings are rarely an effective use of time or energy.

In person meetings make some participants in said meeting feel good. Besides this factor, in person meetings can often be less effective than email or a group chat.

This. Nothing like going to a meeting just to make the person that schedule it feel good or hear them talk about nothing that matters work wise.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#963

Post by maigret » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

anarazel wrote: post #527

dcolkitt wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The innovation argument is particularly frustrating. By far the most innovation in computing this century has occurred in open source software, which by its nature is completely distributed. People who work on the Linux kernel or Postgres or Rust would be pretty shocked to learn that whatever they’re doing must not be innovative since they’re not hanging out in the hallway.

As a postgres dev, I do feel that the lack of in-person conferences over the last 1 1/2 years caused a perceptible slowdown in some areas. But I also can't stand working full in an office most of the time.

The quality and insight of the discussions at conference is usually way higher than at the office. Conferences allow specialists to come together around topics covered only by a few people in the company. Also, they allow you to look outside the box, how other approach similar problems or technologies. At work, I usually already know it most from the regular communication.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#964

Post by foxyv » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:27 PM UTC

I used to do this. 2 days at office and 3 at home after mostly working in office. It really brought into stark contrast how very little I could get done when coming in to work.

I would show up exhausted after a long commute and look for a desk. Then I had to setup and it was weird being in a different place every time. (They took my cubicle and put in Hot Desks.) The noise was distracting. (Open plan) It smelled like a Jack in the Box from the cafeteria and getting lunch took a lot of time. In person meetings ate up a lot of the time I would normally spend multi-tasking.

I did like the socializing when I could get it. But the office magic seemed hardly there anymore. I didn't have a real place. A traveler just waiting to get home.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#965

Post by lostgame » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:37 PM UTC

Icathian wrote: post #835

lostgame wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry; but no. This weird virtual interaction is nowhere close to the real social environment of seeing and working with people face to face. We shouldn’t be forced to come in; but I for one would freakin’ love the option. This is a primary cause of concern for kids at school; that the social aspect is missing in that way. Nowhere close, really.

Maybe it's "nowhere close" for you. Have you considered that for other people it's perfectly equivalent?

Yes, because I'm not a sociopath. :P I'm well aware some people like to work from home.

If you are one of those people you can keep working from home. All I'm asking is for the respect that I am not one of those people - and for my employer to please give me the option to go in. Thanks.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#966

Post by P_I_Staker » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

k-mcgrady wrote: post #909

P_I_Staker wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since starting to work remote I've discovered the power of shutting down the work laptop (not sleeping) at a set time and not looking back. No Slack or work email on the phone. What!?!? I don't necessarily agree with OP, but this is the exact opposite of my experience (mostly observing others). One of the main downsides of WFH is the "always on" nature of it. I usually left my laptop at work, and ignored my phone b…

How do you get randomly pinged outside working hours? Is Slack on your personal phone? If so, delete it. Keep your work emails closed (and not on your personal phone). Use a separate browser profile for work/personal if you are working on your personal laptop. I sympathise with people finding it hard to switch off (I was one until I did all of the above) but it's a simple problem to solve and it's absolutely nothing…

No, I ignore that shit. It's usually group messages and/or people idealistically "hoping" for some help.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#967

Post by P_I_Staker » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

LocalPCGuy wrote: post #945

P_I_Staker wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since starting to work remote I've discovered the power of shutting down the work laptop (not sleeping) at a set time and not looking back. No Slack or work email on the phone. What!?!? I don't necessarily agree with OP, but this is the exact opposite of my experience (mostly observing others). One of the main downsides of WFH is the "always on" nature of it. I usually left my laptop at work, and ignored my phone b…

For me, it may look like I work longer hours than before, but I find my work hours less concentrated. I usually try to log on by 9am and will find myself finishing up between 6pm and 8pm depending on the day. But I often step away a number of times throughout the day for various reasons (no kids, but I assume those with kids have even more reasons for taking a few minutes here and there away from work). It also allow…

I totally understand and agree, but that's different from being "easy" to do a hard cutoff. Leaving your laptop at work is a hard cutoff. Asking around, people are feeling less barriers between them and their work, and that leads to more of an "always on behavior". I've seen that in my colleagues and people from other companies have reported the same.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#968

Post by sam0x17 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:06 PM UTC

midasuni wrote: post #593

xtracto wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2018/2019 discussions about open offices vs private spaces were all the rage. Bean counters (C*Os) were fast to position open offices as great promoters of interactions and teamwork. Fast forward 2 years and thankfully that conversation has moved to WFH vs office work.

Presumably bean counters will be on the side of WFH, as staff no longer need the massive subsidy of office space, and in most cases won’t charge more.

Not if the bean counters built or rented out a huge office and now have to justify that purchase to higher up bean counters or shareholders.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#969

Post by bpodgursky » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #955

bpodgursky wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender inclusivity" at tech companies is really a completely different axis than "motherhood or fatherhood friendly". "Parent" is not a protected class (at least, not on Twitter), and it's really not the goal of any FAANG company to encourage their workers to have families. It requires much harder tradeoffs than being "gender diverse".

I think one way to look at the inability/unwillingness for FAANG companies to have any reasonable parental leave policy, is that it's the kind of thing that needs to be regulated by (federal) law. Looking from Norway, it's rediculus to see companies not managing to give a year of parental leave, or something simple like on-campus child care.

I mean, a year of employer-paid leave is frankly ridiculous. There needs to be federal support for that kind of benefit.

It's not really the parental leave policies (which are often generous). It's the environment around WFH policies and setting up viable career paths for part-time work which is lacking. Ex, if a woman wants to work 20 hours a week instead of being a full-time worker with small children, none of the FAANGs to my knowledge offer a career path that looks like that.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#970

Post by heavyset_go » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #780

heavyset_go wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I save money by spending less on food, drinks, and electricity. For those of us who have to commute, it's not exactly the norm to be saving money while commuting. Commutes are responsible for a 10% drop in hourly wages[1], and the median commute time results in spending 10 full days commuting a year. The average commuter in one of the largest metro areas in the country will spend over 13 full days commuting a year:…

Whenever the discussion of commuting comes up, the discussion revolves around worst case scenarios. We are software engineers! There is no reason for us to put up with a worst case or even an average case commute. If we want to go into the office, it's easy for us to move house or move job. Its not worth agonizing over a few bucks an hour, especially when going into the office has its own monetary benefits as OP ment…

> Whenever the discussion of commuting comes up, the discussion revolves around worst case scenarios.

The median and average commutes are not the worst case scenarios.

> Its not worth agonizing over a few bucks an hour

10% of a software engineer's yearly salary is nothing to balk at. A year or two of that is easily the down payment amount for a modest home, and is more than what many people make in a year.

> It would be a non-issue for most people here to just pay for an Uber back and forth to work, and not have to worry about driving at all.

I just checked Uber, and a one way trip to my last employer is $40 without surge pricing, and to another employer, it would be over $60. Assuming there's about 260 work days per year, that's at least $20k - $31k a year on Uber rides alone.

And it's not just about cost. It's also about time. Based on my last commute, I'd spend about two weeks straight just driving to work and back each year.