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Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

nature.com

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Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#211

Post by beagle3 »

camgunz wrote: post #200
lbeltrame wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some evidence that this happened now, or for earlier diseases? Manaus in Brazil doesn't count, FTR. It never ever reached herd immunity: the data was a large overestimation.

I think my evidence is that there are variants. Isn't the way variants work: - A human gets infected - The human becomes a virus factory - While producing gazillions of viruses, mutations occur - Mutations are variants

The most prolific by far variant factories are apparently immunocompromised individuals, including those vaccinated - which harbor infection for months and a weak immune system - which lets the virus optimize against weak humans, in the same way the traditional vaccines lets the immune system optimize against a weak virus.

(From memory, don’t have a link handy)

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#212

Post by amalcon »

jtdev wrote: post #191
amalcon wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are multiple documented cases where a person caught COVID twice (where the two instances were genetically different, and therefore not a false positive caused by lingering dead virus). The linked article only indicates that antibody production should continue for a long time, but that's only one factor in robust long-term immunity. The rate of antibody production and the set of proteins that the antibodies targ…

Of those cases, I’ve seen zero reported as symptomatic. If you have any proof otherwise please link sources.

I don't see the relevance of whether the re-infection cases are symptomatic. If anything, this makes it slightly more important to be careful, because asymptomatic transmission is what makes this virus worse than others of similar lethality. I don't think that's a significant factor, though.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#213

Post by beagle3 »

zamalek wrote: post #99
JPKab wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you are responding to is not *most people". They had the virus and they recovered. The vaccine is intended to create immunity in people who don't already have it because they haven't already caught the virus. This really isn't complicated.

The vaccines are effective against the spike protein, which is what makes SARS-CoV-2 so virulent. In reality, there are many ways skin that cat, and there's no guarantee that the body chose the spike protein. From the article: > most of these participants still had memory B cells that recognize SARS-CoV-2 No matter how you slice it, you are playing 'Rona Roulette if you don't get vaccinated. The CDC also recommends g…

If the body cleared the virus, then what it chose is effective whether that’s the spike or the nucleocapsid.

It is actually more likely to be robust than vaccine induced immunity.

The claims about superiority of vaccine induced immunity that I’ve seen all rely on antibody counts, and in the very short term that may very well be true - but the importance of T-cells is not sufficiently well characterized to say it with certainty.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#214

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

struxure wrote: post #194
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not true, the 2nd shot is for long-term immunity tho the vaccination was less than ten days in the past, so it might not have been active yet

You are right, it seems that a lot of people develop antibodies after the first vaccine. source: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210114-covid-19-how-eff...

I can’t explain it either, just that it was confirmed in both cases by medical staff. She is pregnant, so they are extra careful.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#215

Post by DennisP »

rsj_hn wrote: post #101
dgritsko wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the immunity you get from having the disease is always better than what you'd get from a vaccine. My understanding is that the opposite is true, at least based on what we know right now. Here is an article summarizing just that[1], which links to a few peer-reviewed studies (and a couple that are pending review) suggesting that the vaccines are better than natural immunity. I don't have any background in this or ag…

I would want something a bit more than studies by the vaccine maker about how good their vaccine is -- for example having those studies reproduced by a third party and comparing natural immunity to the vaccine -- before concluding that a vaccine can be better than natural immunity. It is almost always the case that natural immunity is superior to vaccines.

> It is almost always the case that natural immunity is superior to vaccines.

Do you have a source for that claim? GP offered peer-reviewed evidence to the contrary, which you don't believe, but so far you've offered no evidence at all.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#216

Post by Radim »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #138
amarant wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still anecdotal, but my cousin's wife who is a nurse also had covid twice, both of them confirmed infections(as in, she tested positive), the second one was after she'd received her first shot(not sure which vaccine, but one of the 2-dose ones) I have no clue if they were different variants or what caused her to not be immune, or how unlucky she were(this might be exceedingly rare) but for me it's been a good an…

>> anecdotes aren't anthema to logic. THey're all that is required to disprove universally stated truths. So if some vax-denier says "healthly people can't get covid twice" your anecdote is good enough. The real problem is that despite all their talk of science and facts they're not going to be convinced. That's just window dressing for their wrong beliefs. The value of vaccines is for society as a whole but the majo…

> Something as simple as vacinne passports would probably do it.

Let me fix it for you:

"Something as simple as restricting the freedom of movement of healthy individuals who committed no crime, in violation of Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, would cause people with WRONG BELIEFS (sic!) to behave in ways that I like. Namely, I want them to give up control of their bodies for the greater social good, which is defined by their government. So long as the government agrees with me, naturally, which I expect them to do forever.

The unwashed masses are in need of some enlightened herding. The human rights are there only for times of no consequence; but these are extraordinary, revolutionary times!"

And people wonder where do totalitarian regimes recruit their support base from.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#217

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

toolz wrote: post #208
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I'm aware there is zero financial incentive here in Canada, and that argument sounds a lot like they are knowingly faking the cases, which is a much different argument than the diagnostic doesn't work and implies malice. Just to remove doubt, the ICU has been record setting[1]. As an aside, that article even discusses your claim about bad PCR tests. And are you saying that people have delayed their care to…

I'm really not sure where the disconnect is, because all of that seems highly reasonable to me. Yes, I'm saying people avoided preventative care because they were scared to go near hospitals - this is not a controversial topic, it's clear that is true. I'm not sure about your point with respiratory infections but covid goes on the death certificate with a recent positive test even if you died in a car accident. No, I…

> I'm not sure about your point with respiratory infections but covid goes on the death certificate with a recent positive test even if you died in a car accident.

> No, I've never suggested "coincidence" with case counts and hospitalizations. It seems quite intuitive to me that false positives are happening at a similar rate as usual and more hospitalizations just means more false positives in the hospital. You get false positives with high CT - there have been multiple studies confirming this fact at this point, it's not a controversial statement as far as I'm aware.

But these positives come BEFORE the hospitalizations and deaths. I don't feel like you're understanding the order of events - high cases AND then hospitalizations after weeks. You keep describing events where people are retroactively proven to have COVID - this isn't the case. These are people who test positive and then later enter hospital.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#218

Post by camgunz »

beagle3 wrote: post #211
camgunz wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my evidence is that there are variants. Isn't the way variants work: - A human gets infected - The human becomes a virus factory - While producing gazillions of viruses, mutations occur - Mutations are variants

The most prolific by far variant factories are apparently immunocompromised individuals, including those vaccinated - which harbor infection for months and a weak immune system - which lets the virus optimize against weak humans, in the same way the traditional vaccines lets the immune system optimize against a weak virus. (From memory, don’t have a link handy)

Yeah I mean, we're (presumably) both doing some armchair virology, but I buy that if you're immunocompromised that you can't fight off the virus, and thus the virus succeeds in turning you into a virus factory until you die.

That said, I don't think that's an argument against non-immunocompromised people getting vaccinated. It's like me saying "don't touch the toaster if it were just on, you'll get burned" and you responding "yeah but ovens really burn you." OK well, be careful around both I guess.

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#219

Post by epistasis »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #203
epistasis wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that at all but would love to see the evidence! I'm wondering how they show that, maybe DNA sequencing of T-cell receptor sequence? Or is it only through reactivity if specific proteins? Off to search about T-cell repertoire data...

A good start is researching how vaccines work.

Aha, I think you may have been in error in your post, then.

Vaccines can be targeted to many different parts of a virus, usually different parts of the surface protein. Different vaccines for the same virus may result in entirely different antibodies.

Even the same vaccine may result in different antibodies in different people. The process of antibody creation is random, and involves recombination of specific DNA chunks. And it's different in T cells and B cells.

So to say that the vaccine and the disease generate the same antibodies has meaning, but it needs to be shown by evaluating the specific protein sequences (most likely by sequencing the DNA or RNA that creates the antibody).

Re: Had Covid? You’ll probably make antibodies for a lifetime

#220

Post by nickthemagicman »

epistasis wrote: post #219
nickthemagicman wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good start is researching how vaccines work.

Aha, I think you may have been in error in your post, then. Vaccines can be targeted to many different parts of a virus, usually different parts of the surface protein. Different vaccines for the same virus may result in entirely different antibodies. Even the same vaccine may result in different antibodies in different people. The process of antibody creation is random, and involves recombination of specific DNA chu…

>> Vaccines can be targeted to many different parts of a virus,

Same antibodies even if it is a subset.

It's the reason that the vaccine works whether it's a full set or a subset it still has to create the same antibodies that attack the natural virus.

That's also why antibodies targeting Ebola virus don't work on Corona because they're not the same Corona antibodies.

You're splitting hairs with flowery language and it feels a little disingenuous.

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