Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree that Finder is somewhat weird in regard to hierarchies, but it all makes sense if you get to know it: basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser. I'm not sure Windows is such a great example in the conversation about file systems, what with its "collections" and abstract hierar…
> basically, you can move around with CMD+Arrow. Up goes up a directory, down goes down a directory (or opens the file). Left / Right go forward / back in history, like a browser. This is really helpful to know - it's one of my biggest bugaboos about using Finder & navigating the Mac GUI. On the other hand, I suspect this kind of obscure key-based shortcut is a big part of why Macs don't feel intuitive to a lot of us…
How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
631–638 of 638 posts
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#632Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can click a menu, press alt, and see the entries change. That is insane. Who came up with that? Why do some entries lose their ellipsis when you hold alt? How is anyone expected to know any of this?
I think it's in the "mental model". You're kind of "expected" to know that "option" will produce an "optional / alternate" behavior. It's kind of like windows. How are you supposed to know that win+left will move the window to the side? At least, on macOS, if you press OPT, the entries will change. On Windows, if you click right → delete, the file isn't deleted . It's moved to the recycle bin. "How are you supposed t…
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#633They aren't. The first time using it about 10 years ago was confusing: Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click Double click on window --> fullscreen; uh... move mouse around edges to find how to get back to other windows Drag window to side of the screen to split window --> nothing; search the application menu --> nothing; Cmd+Right? --> nothing; oook, I have to actually resize ever…
> Single button mouse --> no instructions, can't find out how to right click I can’t stand OSX, but I’m pretty proficient. I think the right click is a symptom of you being so used to Windows or linux. The average user probably never needs to right click. I bought my mum a MacBook Air and she’s never needed to right click in the 4-5 years of owning it. I think it’s hidden for good reason. She also never asks if she s…
And saying somebody hasn't asked about using a second button when all you give them is a single button... come on.
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#634Earlier quoted context omitted.
The single menu bar design breaks down very quickly once you start using a large display. Evolve to multiple large displays and it is an absolute mess. The only option you have is to enable the toolbar on every screen, which starts to be laughable. I have used Windows setups with as many as 50 screens (command and control center). Having each application exist within its own window with all relevant menus in that win…
Also it is one of the main reason "focus follow mouse" feature couldn't be implemented in Mac OS. I use multi-monitor setup and I used Ubuntu for my personal computer before Covid, but now started using my office Mac for everything and I hate that Mac doesn't have this option. I typed in wrong window more times than I would like to admit because of this stupid singe menu bar design.
And we don't want "OS focus" to follow the mouse! That would pop windows to the front, change the menu bar, and other unfortunate consequences: if I were mousing up toward the menu and accidentally crossed another window, I'd get the wrong menu.
What we want is for keyboard focus to also follow the mouse, and there's not actually any inherent reason why this can't happen. It's just that they're tightly coupled by the implementation, to the point where an extension can't un-couple them.
The lack of (keyboard) focus-follows-mouse is the big fly in my macOS ointment, it annoys me whenever I'm on my widescreen, which is at least half of the time. I do think it would be possible to implement a usable f-f-m which still worked the way macOS does with respect to menus, which windows get priority, and so on.
It would require uncoupling some things under the hood, which would probably affect the API in an incompatible way, so I don't expect to ever see it happen unfortunately.
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#635Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trying to find a file you know the name of in finder is absolute murder. I often find myself resorting to `ls | grep` then `open` in the terminal.
There’s a preference to switch the search field from “the entire universe” to “this folder”.
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#636I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…
The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…
I use a nice little app called New File Menu to do that. It supports a bunch of defaults & whatever other templates you want to create. $2 on the Mac App Store. I’m just a happy user.
App Store link: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/new-file-menu/id1064959555?ls=...
Website: https://langui.net/new-file-menu/
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#637Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can click a menu, press alt, and see the entries change. That is insane. Who came up with that? Why do some entries lose their ellipsis when you hold alt? How is anyone expected to know any of this?
I think it's in the "mental model". You're kind of "expected" to know that "option" will produce an "optional / alternate" behavior. It's kind of like windows. How are you supposed to know that win+left will move the window to the side? At least, on macOS, if you press OPT, the entries will change. On Windows, if you click right → delete, the file isn't deleted . It's moved to the recycle bin. "How are you supposed t…
You're not. Shortcuts are a power user thing. If you want to move the window you drag it.
> There are quite a lot of "have to know" things in other OSs, too.
Oh definitely. It just seems to me that OSX is exceptionally bad at telegraphing these things. On windows and even linux most all features have something visible to clue you in to their existence. OSX seems to do its best to hide things instead.
Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?
#638Earlier quoted context omitted.
All of our Macs have a utility installed to remap the keyboard to make it match a PC to the extent possible. When you use multiple platforms with some frequency it is a real pain to have to deal with MacOS idiosyncrasies. What's interesting is that Apple explicitly chose to ignore what I will go-ahead and call the de-facto standard established across pretty much every desktop GUI by a range of vendors. I have worked…
> No reason for it whatsoever. The Mac had a functioning UI in the 1980s before the “defacto standards” appeared (I believe would be in the 1990s) would that explain some of the discrepancies?
No problem with that at all. Being opinionated is fine. No issues there.
One way to look at it is that Apple, as a computer company, was a failure. They were on the edge of becoming insolvent. In fact, most Apple users don't know that Microsoft/Bill Gates rescued Apple from meeting an unsightly end by investing $150 million (maybe more, I don't remember) into the company. This would be equivalent to a billion dollar+ investment today.
What saved Apple was the iPhone. Plain and simple. The computer portion of their business was crashing and burning. Note that I am not ascribing this impending doom to the choices made for the GUI at all. Just reviewing some history.
Sometimes being very different is cool, and sometimes it isn't.
Let's look at it from a very different frame of reference. All browsers today work and feel about the same to a casual user --the general public. If someone insisted on delivering one that behaved and looked very different from the standards developed over time, they would not find a great deal of adoption. Microsoft did the right thing in dropping their failed browser and adopting Chromium. That is an example of a good decision made based on how standards evolved outside of their own efforts. Late, sure, but they were opinionated about browsers and eventually understood they were wrong.
That's what Macs felt like to the rest of the world. Weird. Perhaps unnecessarily weird. As the world was getting used to having a capable computer on every desk, Apple, in my opinion, continued to shoot itself in the foot by not listening to a user base 10x to 100x the size of their at all.
You can do that, of course, but when your company ends-up at the edge of failure and you have to be rescued by your competitor...maybe it's time to rethink your approach.
Apple insisted on silly things, like having a single mouse button and, yes, a single menu bar. As I said before, the single menu bar makes sense for some single small screen use-cases, but it quickly falls apart once you go big and multiple screens. There's also the effect of having multiple windows belonging to multiple applications strewn about your screen or screens with no clear association to a single application. I remember the early days of this. It was a mess. The difference between running something like Photoshop on Windows vs. a Mac, was night and day. One was clean and organized. The other was a mess of windows everywhere. What I am using for this use-case evaluation was the reaction of my daughter who had been learning tools such as GIMP and Photoshop on a PC and then saw how Photoshop ran on a Mac. She wanted nothing to do with it.
Anyhow, I am not here to downgrade Apple computers. They are fine. Very usable. Lots of people love them and, in my opinion, pay ridiculous amounts of money for them. All I am saying is that Apple could have made an effort to still be opinionated while giving users the choices they were already making elsewhere. That's an important point. The PC world has been an amazing experiment from day one. For the most part choices were made by users. There have been massive failures in that universe. Users voted with their purchases every step of the way. And that's how we got where we are. Were it not for Microsoft/Bill Gates and, later, the iPhone, it is quite possible the Mac would have died long ago. This was a technology imposed on users from above. I think I can say it is very rare to see that kind of thing survive in the long term. I still remember when Apple decided to move away from the PowerPC platform and killed off every customer's investment in software. In the PC world, like it or not, the issue of compatibility across transitions was incredibly important, hence the slow-but-steady evolution rather than having radical step changes in technology.
To some degree I equate some of what Tesla is doing to this effect. Today, if you analyze their financials, Tesla would be out of business if they had to rely on car sales. A harsher way to put it is that their electric car business is a failure. Had it not been for carbon credits they would have imploded, or, at the very least, would have had to raise tons of capital to burn for a few more years. The truth is simple: As much as I like electrics, nobody wants them. Not at scale. And the reasons are somewhat similar to the Apple issues (if we contort thing around). If the GUI, other platform choices and cost are relabeled as "infrastructure", the electric car isn't desirable to the vast majority of the population due to infrastructure issues. There are approximately 1.4 billion conventional cars in the world vs. about 10 million electrics. If you look at the energy required to replace the fleet of IC cars (to manufacture the cars, batteries, charging stations, etc.) and the massive step-change in electric power generation, it is very easy to conclude the idea is far closer to ridiculous on any time horizon shorter than 50 to 100 years.
Anyhow, it's a fun bit of computing history.