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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

jeremyaboyd.com

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#371

Post by m463 »

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

When I click the finder icon, I get a finder window.

As to ease of use...

MacOS is not easier to learn - it has just as many quirks as windows, except in different places.

However, I have found it much more consistent than any other desktop. The menubar is one example - always there in the same place, with all the File, Edit, etc menus as expected. Keys are consistent (mostly)

consistency is the key.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#372

Post by defaultname »

Koshkin wrote: post #338
samatman wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think desktop GUIs can or should be 'intuitive'. They should be consistent, discoverable, and customizable. I give macOS full marks for consistency, and a passing grade for customizable, but it's hardly discoverable! I read these kinds of HN posts because of all the little tips and tricks I find. Operating systems used to come with a thick manual, and you could buy an even thicker "missing manual" book at the…

> consistent, discoverable I think that's what 'intuitive' means, practically, in this context.

I think he quoted intuitive because that's an effectively meaningless claim. To someone who spent two decades in Windows, everything Windows-like will be "intuitive". That doesn't make it a universal truth.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#373

Post by moogleii »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #315
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What on earth is an "empty" file? And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. And yes, you can sort and align. Just go to the View menu. And yes, there's a way to go the parent folder. SEVERAL: - Go -> Enclosing Folder - Cmd-Up - Right click on the window title and choose any enclosing folder from the tree - Show the Path Bar and double click any enclosing folder from the tree I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac…

> I don't think you've ever actually used a Mac. For the last 2 years I've used a Mac professionally and personally. I switched from Windows because lots of things are better. Finder is not one of them. And your answers should give you a hint why it sucks. An empty file is a file that is empty, with the name and extension I chose on the moment I need it. >And yes you can cut. Cmd-C, Cmd-Opt-V. With the wrong keyboard…

Generally speaking, macOS uses option or shift to modify existing commands. Hence cmd-c / cmd-(opt)-v. The paradigm is Copy -> Move or Duplicate.

In Windows, it's Copy or Cut -> Paste. I don't mind this change from Windows. Actually, I slightly prefer the Mac version, because I can change my mind on what operation I want to do. Windows front loads the choice, and I have to do it again if I decide I don't want to copy or cut anymore.

As for folder nav/manipulation, I find Finder to make much greater sense, whereas Explorer was just, this makes sense because it's always been this way (don't get me wrong, Finder has its shortcomings in other areas, although File Preview [space bar] is pretty awesome).

Finder: Generally speaking, arrows do everything.

* Movement within folder: up/down arrow keys

* Move out or into a directory / into a file or app AKA open it: cmd up/down

* Expand/contract a folder: left/right arrow keys

* Rename a file/folder: Enter

Explorer:

* Movement within a folder: up/down arrow keys

* Move into a directory / open a file: Enter

* Move out of a directory: alt up

* Expand/contract a folder: left/right

* Rename a file / folder: F2

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#374

Post by dsego »

aoeusnth1 wrote: post #344
dsego wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) You don't need cut for files, you either want to duplicate the file or move it. For moving you copy it (cmd-c) and then move with cmd-opt-v. Cut doesn't really make sense for files. With text you cut out the text into a clipboard. Where does the file go when you cut it? Nowhere. There is no place where you can see that you had already cut a file but it's…

It’s another UX paradigm I have to remember (and usually don’t) instead of using the standard one which is second nature to me.

Nobody is forcing you to use macs. Doesn't make the mac any less intuitive if it doesn't follow what alternative operating systems are doing.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#375

Post by Liquid_Fire »

FabHK wrote: post #172
drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

1) hit space for Quick Look, then scroll through? Or use column view. 2) home folder is listed on the Sidebar by default (its name is the user short name, ie its actual name). If that is not there for some reason, go to Finder -> Preferences -> Sidebar.

> home folder is listed on the Sidebar by default

Definitely not on by default, at least on Big Sur. I had to Google how to get to it.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#376

Post by volta83 »

bayindirh wrote: post #291
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

> No "parent folder"...

or CMD+UP

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#377

Post by scelerat »

The OP is making a general argument about "intuitiveness" of an interface when the difficulty arises because of strategic decision by both Apple and Google.

Also, echoes of the '90s OS wars with some similar blind spots:

- no real definition of what is meant by "intuitive" - experience with another OS bias one's expectations to the equally arbitrary UI decisions the other OS made

Not saying that the install-from-dmg experience the OP describes is some ideal installation process, but it certainly is well within the established UI paradigms. Disks and disk images are a thing. If you want to move a thing from one place to another, you drag it there. Apps go in the Application folder, so if you download an app from somewhere other than the App store, either drag it from the disk image or the downloads folder, to the Applications folder. You don't even have to do that; the app will still work from wherever you put it.

In essence the OP is making a complaint about a standard UI feature which is being used to navigate around the elephant in the room, which is that Apple and Google can't agree on a way to get Chrome into the App store.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#378

Post by DocG »

bayindirh wrote: post #291
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

> This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature.

To give perspective, I do weekly. I work often files that I need to modify or create files that have no native apps with UI. Key files, certs, etc.

Also, its way easier when working to just create file in already open dir than go open a program and try to navigate to the dir you already are. Eg local web development, I'm 10 dir deep somewhere obscure place.

I'm on windows.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#379

Post by cmiller1 »

allenu wrote: post #359
samatman wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the same thing though. macOS has those also, programs can live on the menu bar. But in macOS, closing the last window basically never exits the program. Even for a program like Element, which is just an Electron view, closing the window doesn't quit the program, even though what's left over is useless: there's no way to relaunch the Electron pane except to quit and start it again. This is just how macOS wo…

There is one example of really bad app behavior when the last window is closed and it's one that Apple makes themselves: QuickTime Player. If you open up QuickTime Player and then play back a video, then close the video, as soon as you background the app, it auto-quits itself. I wonder if they made it behave this way at some point to get around a memory leak. It's such an unexpected thing and it infuriates me each ti…

Just tested and QuickTime Player stayed open, not sure I've ever seen this happen.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#380

Post by kec »

EamonnMR wrote: post #85
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Trying to find a file you know the name of in finder is absolute murder. I often find myself resorting to `ls | grep` then `open` in the terminal.

There’s a preference to switch the search field from “the entire universe” to “this folder”.
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