EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies • Hacker News Board

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #305

teekert wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than the Lukashenko" I feel that that is true for almost all sanctions everywhere sadly. The Russians love their children too. In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit, short and long term. Making markets more independent of each other is only making a war more likely. If goods don't cross borders arm…

> In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit It will benefit air travellers whose planes will not get hijacked by the Belarus air force.

Forbidding non-Belarus based flights from flying over Belarus would accomplish that.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

mcky wrote: post #145

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. The only way out was flying from Minsk, which is now even less of an option if there are no flights to the EU. As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko [1] https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/p…

[deleted]

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by inglor_cz » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:43 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #289

inglor_cz wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland isn't that far from Belarus (they are direct neighbours). People travel overland between those two, it is also quite a bit cheaper. Even Czech Belarussians tend to take the bus back home. It is going to be worse for expats in France or Britain, though.

I doubt that the land borders will remain open and easy to traverse. It’s likely that this is the beginning of an escalation on both sides. Beyond that, Poland may be bordering Belarus, but Poland is a huge country. Berlin to Minsk is 1,100 km, a 12-13 hour bus ride at minimum. Add a 2-3 hour wait at the border to be realistic. This all adds up to a much longer trip than a 1-2 hour flight. Especially for immigrants t…

I know. Pre-war Czechoslovakia was a long noodle and people from Carpathian Ruthenia (a region annexed by the USSR in 1945 and attached to Ukrainian SSR) still come to Prague to work. They usually take buses from Uzhhorod to Prague (750 km), the journey lasts about 13 hours.

Yeah, no one does a weekend hop to family and back under such conditions. Visits are monthly.

Warsaw to Minsk buses take about 12 hours too. But the ticket is cheap, about 20 eur. I don't think you can buy an air ticket under 100 eur. Perhaps even much more (150-200).

Given that a lot of the people work for peanuts, they choose the far cheaper option even if it means a much longer and uncomfortable journey.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by LaserToy » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

jaynetics wrote: post #258

proxysna wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

just out of curiosity, are you worried that posts such as this one could land you in trouble at some point? or are you taking steps like using a VPN for this?

I’m not the author, but yes it might.

The regime is getting crazier and they eventually might start cleansing folks who said something online. Or their relatives. You just never know.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by _ZeD_ » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #311

BurningFrog wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit It will benefit air travellers whose planes will not get hijacked by the Belarus air force.

Forbidding non-Belarus based flights from flying over Belarus would accomplish that.

also treating this "incident" as a war act

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by jcranmer » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #247

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fully democratic ... by the EU parliament, consisting of directly elected representatives I'd argue a full democracy would be democracy by plebiscite. Whether representative or direct democracy is better is an open question.

To me, full democracy just means a democratic system which enjoys the consent of the majority of the people. It could be parliamentary, presidential, proportional representation, direct democracy, whatever. I don't think outsiders or third parties have a right to decide whether a system of rule that enjoys the support of the people 'counts' or not. That's entirely independent of my view that direct democracy is a ter…

> * We can see this with the Brexit referendum. For 2 years the UK had a government and parliament that didn't want to leave the EU responsible for implementing legislation and a treaty to leave it. The result was political paralysis. Fortunately we now have a government aligned with the goal, but that's just pure luck.

That's not entirely accurate. Theresa May called a snap election within a year (explicitly on the basis of building a stronger base to achieve Brexit) that resulted in a lessened majority for the pro-Brexit faction. The paralysis in Brexit was caused by the question of where the customs border would lie in a Brexit world: on the Irish island (jeopardizing the Good Friday Agreement), in the Irish Sea (jeopardizing the UK), or around Great Britain as well (negating most of the point of Brexit), on which point the British government effectively refused to provide an answer until almost the last possible moment.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by stjohnswarts » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

cnlevy wrote: post #299

unixhero wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.

Russia and Belarus are very close allies. I doubt anyone who is at risk by transiting in Moscow would be safe in Minsk

You think Russia would risk having their planes banned all through Europe to give a two bit dictator a reporter?

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by saiya-jin » Tue, May 25, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #151

ceilingcorner wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disagreeing with the EU != equivalent to an authoritarian regime. Politics is more complicated than Good Guys vs. Bad Guys.

Hungary is objectively an authoritarian regime because it removed separation of powers, stacked court with political appointees, closed down virtually all independent press, made state TV into a propaganda piece for Fidesz, etc. Not because it "disagrees with the EU".

You can be an authoritative regime and still hate Russia and its puppets with passion for what atrocities they did in last century (1956 for Hungary, less but still bloody 1968 for Czechoslovakia).

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by tpm » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

Ichthypresbyter wrote: post #218

londons_explore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

>I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. It's in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 13 Section 2: >Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country. Of course, it's not clear how much legal force the UDHR has.

> Of course, it's not clear how much legal force the UDHR has.

Depending on the jurisdiction. It has a lot of legal force in countries that are members of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR; violations go to that court if they are not satisified by local courts or other means of member states; member states usually respect the Court's decisions). Belarus applied for membership in 1993 but was never admitted, because well I think it's clear why.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

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Post by thecupisblue » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

getlawgdon wrote: post #216

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with all of the bureaucracy and hierarchies of the organising bodies, but it looks like a Belarussian and a Russian were elected to the management board of the UEC in March [1]. It will be interesting to see how that affects decisions. [1] https://minskeurotrack.com/en/news/news/20210329-the-chief-o...

WADA multi-year ban of Russia -- the entire country -- prohibits them from international competition. The very few Russian athletes who pass special criteria can compete stateless. Why would track cycling allow any Russian official near a position of authority, especially in a strength/explosiveness sport?

Because for any "council", "federation", "organisation", "committee", the sport is not about the sport, but about money, power and influence of people in the aforementioned group.