What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use • Hacker News Board

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#131

Post by eloff » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

lapinot wrote: post #126

ccn0p wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what's fair? 50%? 60? who decides? when does it stop?

I think any wealth (not income!) over something like 1M should be confiscated. :) There's no reason to have that much money and there's no way you personally have generated that wealth, most likely you just invested money early enough in something sucessful to extort money from it. This may sound provocating but it's actually quite a sound model, but which would also mean reconstructing what we mean by the economy...…

This is a terrible idea put forward by people with no grasp of either economics or history.

First off you can't buy a home in some parts with that kind of money. But that aside, you'd stifle most incentive to innovate, provide jobs, and live in your country. Anyone who thought they might pass your 1M limit will just leave to a country that doesn't do that. No offense, but I've never been interested in living in the US and you'd have to pay me quite a lot to accept a green card. I certainly wouldn't take it if offered freely, because it comes with a major tax liability. There are nicer places in the world by a variety of metrics.

So if you chase away everyone with wealth you'll be left paying 100% of the taxes instead of 60% and with no jobs to pay them with. Good luck with that!

Look to Soviet Russia, Cuba, Venezuela for examples of how that plays out.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#132

Post by dmcgee » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

edouard-harris wrote: post #127

internetslave wrote: post #13

I have a conspiracy theory that there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe, also that most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich.

> there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe This is almost certainly true — apart from oligarchs, dictators, and crypto billionaires, it's broadly understood that "500 richest" lists also miss a fair number of anonymous Omaha residents, for example. > most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich I think this part is probably a mischaracterization (though I could also just be misinte…

> you must also believe that most wealth concentrations arise more from things like theft, and less from things like value creation.

Maybe, maybe not. [1]

[1] https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/tech/cybercrime-to-top-6-trillio...

As a side note I appreciate the urgency in the tone of the quoted here.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#133

Post by etherael » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

medvezhenok wrote: post #103

eloff wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's factually incorrect. It's easy to make a list of rich people specifically saying tax the rich more. Leaving that aside, the 1% pay 38.5% of taxes, which seems quite fair as is. We already tax the rich quite heavily. I'd rather the focus be on compliance. Close the loopholes and catch the tax evaders. Wealth taxes, if you look at examples elsewhere both present and historically, are hard to do well. I worry the…

I think we're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on exactly what the tax rates are and how much is "fair". Money at the top levels is not at all like money for the rest of us. For a middle class citizen, money is about consumption and freedom to do what you want (with enough of it). At the top end of the distribution, money is no longer about consumption or freedom (since you can never realistically consume…

> It's more about limiting the amount of power that a person can accumulate over others.

Does this not beg the question why not just limit power itself rather than limiting wealth with the target side effect that the wealthy will not easily purchase power as a result?

Why is almost the entire species seemingly addicted to the idea that the power itself is not the problem? You can erect regulations on the corrosive influence of money in politics until the cows come home but as long as the ROI on lobbying is positive, it's a given that's going to be the result.

On the other hand when there's no power to buy nobody buys it by definition. Adjust above extreme observation appropriately in order to justify the minimal possible tolerable conglomeration of power availability in any given system to find whatever tolerable level the reader ends up comfortable with. Or viewed uncharitably, arrive at the conclusion that's exactly what's already happened and the human affliction of slavish devotion to power is near universal and continuously growing and there's no way to escape it short of completely opting out of modern global civilization given the observed distribution of the population constantly seeking to increase it.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#134

Post by BLKNSLVR » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:01 PM UTC

reedjosh wrote: post #75

admissionsguy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about the first sentence, but how is "most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich" a conspiracy theory? Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism? I am asking honestly. The social order being a mostly immutable pyramid has always been the natural model of how things work in my mind.

> Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism? I think it's only exacerbated by government intervention (corruption) and regulatory capture. I do agree that human nature tends to winners and losers, but right now the losers are being bashed over the head by a tool they think is helping them.

In Australia they appear to be voting in favour of continued bashing.

I think there's some kind of analogy to the Dunning-Kruger effect where people are deluded that they are in fact in the group of people that will be advantaged by lowering corporate tax rates, for example.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#135

Post by BLKNSLVR » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

vixen99 wrote: post #114

internetslave wrote: post #13

I have a conspiracy theory that there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe, also that most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich.

Perhaps I'm missing something but how am I working to keep rich people rich? There must be specific instances but is this a general rule?

You provide labour to earn your living as opposed to providing capital.

If you're providing labour then it's likely that you're providing a small percentage of the return that those providing capital receive as dividend.

Value of labor provider being transformed into profit for capital provider.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#136

Post by dathinab » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #109

supernova87a wrote: post #79

Can someone ELI5, what entities or convoluted mechanisms or businesses do very rich people create / have access to that they can minimize taxes, which the rest of us simply cannot take advantage of here in regular life?

Depends on your citizenship. If you hold non US citizenship, it is generally easy to avoid most taxes by physically relocating to a tax haven (low or no tax). But that is perfectly legal, not fraud.

> But that is perfectly legal, not fraud.

Except if you don't actually relocate there, in which case it's fraud.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#137

Post by Ekaros » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #31

slifin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a conspiracy theory that Forbes created the rich list Which intentionally does not have despots oligarchs or royals to skew the conversation to a business matter which can get lost in the left/right divide

The Forbes rich list has some criteria such as from their own revenue or share prices. Basically private market generated wealth. There are exceptions and the line gets blurred really quickly, but thats their stated goal.

Pretty simple with public companies. With private companies and current market it really does get messy. I'm thinking about Valve and how much higher it would be priced on public market compared to private... And that can't be only case. So the private market is quite dark place...

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#138

Post by akiselev » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:20 PM UTC

edouard-harris wrote: post #127

internetslave wrote: post #13

I have a conspiracy theory that there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe, also that most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich.

> there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe This is almost certainly true — apart from oligarchs, dictators, and crypto billionaires, it's broadly understood that "500 richest" lists also miss a fair number of anonymous Omaha residents, for example. > most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich I think this part is probably a mischaracterization (though I could also just be misinte…

That contrast of value creation against theft is a false dichotomy. Reframing the latter as "value capture" or "wealth extraction" and treating it separately from value creation gives way to a far more robust analysis.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#139

Post by gwright » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

etherael wrote: post #133

medvezhenok wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're missing the forest for the trees by focusing on exactly what the tax rates are and how much is "fair". Money at the top levels is not at all like money for the rest of us. For a middle class citizen, money is about consumption and freedom to do what you want (with enough of it). At the top end of the distribution, money is no longer about consumption or freedom (since you can never realistically consume…

> It's more about limiting the amount of power that a person can accumulate over others. Does this not beg the question why not just limit power itself rather than limiting wealth with the target side effect that the wealthy will not easily purchase power as a result? Why is almost the entire species seemingly addicted to the idea that the power itself is not the problem? You can erect regulations on the corrosive in…

One rationale for limited government is that there is a direct, positive correlation between the power ceded to government and the incentive to control/steer that power. By limiting the power of government you reduce the incentive to usurp or corrupt that power.

An extreme example of this would be a dictatorial regime where control of the government becomes a life-or-death concern for warring groups.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#140

Post by raziel2701 » Mon, May 24, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

azinman2 wrote: post #80

sig-reduction wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP's conspiracy theory is absolutely true. There is a whole thread of academic research estimating the right tail of the wealth distribution (spoiler: the Fed household finances microdata is garbage). Diff the Bloomberg and Forbes rich lists... they're not the same list. One oligarch on those lists had their estimated net worth double after the Appleby leaks turned up some trusts. I'm pretty sure Bloomberg just calls…

I guess it depends on where peoples wealth comes from. It’s probably far easier to estimate Zuckerberg and Bezos when you know it’s tied to a publicly traded company than if it’s all private. I have a good friend who is a billionaire that laughs at these lists knowing they know nothing about his money (not a public company), where it comes from, and where it lives.

Yup, Mexico has a ton of wealthy people because of drugs, you don't see their names on these lists.