Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

brookings.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 188 posts

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#71

Post by Spooky23 »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #50
hanniabu wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea why you're being downvoted

Rich != Wealthy. "Rich" tends to refer to people who are generating lots of cash, oftentimes through labor (like doctors or lawyers or athletes). "Wealthy" tends to refer to people who own lots of assets and generate cash through asset appreciation/sales and real property. Wealthy people will push for income taxes while trying to eliminate capital gains and inheritance taxes. This conversation came up years ago when…

There is a third category of people who are resource rich. People who owe oil wells, mines, some farms, etc.

Because of consolidation and the unique governance structure of the US, these folks are enormously powerful today.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#72

Post by devmunchies »

internetslave wrote: post #13

I have a conspiracy theory that there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe, also that most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich.

the value of gold has gone up 30x (in USD) since the 70s.

There must be some old noble families with vaults of gold that are "off the books".

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#73

Post by internetslave »

Daishiman wrote: post #66
Cyril_HN wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of evidence would we expect to see if that was true?

It's not really a conspiracy. You just need to know the right people intimately. I live in a country with a thoroughly dysfunctional banking system which, by most accounts, fall right in the middle of the global income bracket. Yet I know a ton of people in the upper-middle and lower-upper class and they all have the following characteristics of their wealth, which _do not_ appear in most wealth statistics: * One or…

Basically this. I spent some time in the Bahamas with connected people. Really opened my mind up to a hidden world that’s actually quite big.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#74

Post by macintux »

the_optimist wrote: post #56
macintux wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never, eh? https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/19/bill-gates-taxes-on-rich-sho... https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/jul/13/super-rich-call... https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/01/06/the-ultra-weal...

None of these are calls for wealth taxes. These are calls for income taxes. This is called “pulling up the ladder.”

Bill is calling for higher capital gains and inheritance taxes, so not income taxes anyway.

The ‘Millionaires for Humanity’ don’t specify what taxes they’d like to see raised, but they emphasize they want it on themselves.

And from the third article:

> Several members, including Molly Munger, the daughter of Charlie Munger, the longtime vice-chairman of Warren Buffett’s firm, Berkshire Hathaway, have spoken in favor of a wealth tax.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#75

Post by reedjosh »

admissionsguy wrote: post #62
internetslave wrote: post #13

I have a conspiracy theory that there are far more rich people than we are lead to believe, also that most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich.

Not sure about the first sentence, but how is "most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich" a conspiracy theory? Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism? I am asking honestly. The social order being a mostly immutable pyramid has always been the natural model of how things work in my mind.

> Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism?

I think it's only exacerbated by government intervention (corruption) and regulatory capture.

I do agree that human nature tends to winners and losers, but right now the losers are being bashed over the head by a tool they think is helping them.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#76

Post by Spooky23 »

devmunchies wrote: post #64
TAForObvReasons wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rich != Wealthy. "Rich" tends to refer to people who are generating lots of cash, oftentimes through labor (like doctors or lawyers or athletes). "Wealthy" tends to refer to people who own lots of assets and generate cash through asset appreciation/sales and real property. Wealthy people will push for income taxes while trying to eliminate capital gains and inheritance taxes. This conversation came up years ago when…

yes, this is why people calling states with no income tax as a "regressive" tax structure seems like a psyop. Income tax taxes people who work for a living. Property + capital gains tax both tax assets appreciation and rent seekers (unless the investment is a high risk venture into a startup or something ambitious).

Maybe, but they are less regressive.

States without income taxes usually rely on sales or excise taxes. In a “high tax” state like New York, poor people don’t pay income tax nor sales tax on food or clothing. (A significant expense) Usually high tax pressure is from property tax.

In a state like South Carolina, you have income tax, but property taxes are very low. They make up for that by taxing food, which results in higher taxation for poor and elderly people.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#77

Post by alistairSH »

javert wrote: post #65
the_optimist wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll never see rich people argue for a wealth tax, but they sure as hell will parade demanding that we raise taxes on income of the service class.

Which raises a subsequent question: Why does the middle class clamor to raise taxes on the rich, which won't appreciably benefit themselves, when they could instead push to lower taxes on themselves, which will benefit themselves? Maybe different in Europe, but in the USA tax increases do not find their way back to benefits for the public. I mean unless by "public" you mean the next country we want to "liberate" and…

Anecdotal... my peers (upper middle-class in the US) generally realize the taxes they pay fund all the stuff we rely upon to stay upper middle-class. Good public schools, roads, etc. We just want the rich to pay their fair share too.

Or, if you're a jaded cynic, the rich are mostly just greedy sociopaths. They want to minimize their own tax burden and give zero fucks about the betterment of society. They got theirs, screw everybody else.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#78

Post by admissionsguy »

reedjosh wrote: post #75
admissionsguy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about the first sentence, but how is "most of us are just working to prop them up and keep them rich" a conspiracy theory? Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism? I am asking honestly. The social order being a mostly immutable pyramid has always been the natural model of how things work in my mind.

> Isn't that the whole basis of capitalism? I think it's only exacerbated by government intervention (corruption) and regulatory capture. I do agree that human nature tends to winners and losers, but right now the losers are being bashed over the head by a tool they think is helping them.

I mean fundamentally, accumulating capital would be pretty pointless if not for legions of poor(er) people willing to do whatever the owner of the capital wants them to.

Re: What lies beneath: Evidence from leaked account data on offshore banking use

#80

Post by azinman2 »

sig-reduction wrote: post #51
slifin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a conspiracy theory that Forbes created the rich list Which intentionally does not have despots oligarchs or royals to skew the conversation to a business matter which can get lost in the left/right divide

OP's conspiracy theory is absolutely true. There is a whole thread of academic research estimating the right tail of the wealth distribution (spoiler: the Fed household finances microdata is garbage). Diff the Bloomberg and Forbes rich lists... they're not the same list. One oligarch on those lists had their estimated net worth double after the Appleby leaks turned up some trusts. I'm pretty sure Bloomberg just calls…

I guess it depends on where peoples wealth comes from. It’s probably far easier to estimate Zuckerberg and Bezos when you know it’s tied to a publicly traded company than if it’s all private. I have a good friend who is a billionaire that laughs at these lists knowing they know nothing about his money (not a public company), where it comes from, and where it lives.
Post reply on HN