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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#291

Post by bayindirh »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no way to create an empty file

This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature.

> There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work)

Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.

> There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned

It's called "Clean Up By". Available in right click menu and in the top menu probably. It'll always keep the order you choose.

> Tags are useless and just take up space for nothing.

On the contrary, this is something I love. I can just throw a bunch of files to a folder and tag them about what I'm going to do with them. Colors allow me to mentally sort them with no overhead.

> No "parent folder"...

Two-finger click to folder name on the finder. The path will be revealed as a reverse-ordered stack. Or just press back. It's parent folder 99% of the time.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#292

Post by cferr »

piokoch wrote: post #28

Intuitiveness is a strange topic. Think of moving to the beginning and the end on the command line in the terminal. This is done using Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E keys. Is this intuitive? Yes, it is for someone who was using Emacs for 20 years as it uses same keys. Is this intuitive for a typical MS Windows user who uses Notepad++ and MS Word? Hell, no. Same with operation systems. For someone accustomed to Windows conventions…

I just use the Home and End keys in the terminal, which seems intuitive enough to me.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#293

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

coldtea wrote: post #256
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> - There's no way to create an empty file Create it for what? To use to launch the app that handles it? Just open the respective app and save an empty or unedited file. > - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to. > - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Not sure what you mean. >…

> Looks like all of the complains are basically "they're not where they was on Windows".

Well... yeah kinda but not only. Windows does some things better, and it seems like a good idea to copy good UX paradigms wherever they come from. Also for some of these your answere is "why do you want to do this?" or "use some obscure keyboard magic". I want to because I want to. Sometimes I'm in a folder and want to create a specific file because it fits my current workflow. I don't always do it, but sometimes I need to.

>Copy as regularly (Cmd-C), and use Option-Cmd-V to move the file where you want to.

I don't care, why is it not Cmd-X? Why do they break the universal standard with this?

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#294

Post by pilsetnieks »

drewg123 wrote: post #96

I just helped a friend who is a lifetime windows user set up her new MBP M1. I was reminded how un-intuitive things are and how useful UI elements are hidden in the name of "simplicity". A lot of it for her is centered around the finder and accessing files in general. The two biggest issues she had was: 1) finder not easily acting as an image viewer. Eg, she had an SD card from her camera, and wanted to quickly scan…

> it took a while to expose a hidden ui element that we could use to make the images larger

Every folder in icon view has a slider at the bottom for exactly this purpose.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#295

Post by lucideer »

liprais wrote: post #119
lucideer wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a common view held by experienced computer users, because they don't consider which parts of their own usage patterns are a component of their advanced knowledge, and which are inherent to all users. For example: an experienced user is more likely to notice that closing a window in macOS backgrounds the app, and more likely to figure out how to fully exit the app process completely (either via Cmd+Q o…

It is obvious you are used to windows.

I'm a Mac user.

I'm re-reading my own comment as both replies to it seem to have taken the opposite point that I intended, but I can't see where I said the macOS behaviour is bad. I personally like it (though I wasn't saying that either).

My only point was that it being less intuitive for more techy users doesn't mean it's not generally very intuitive for the majority.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#296

Post by samatman »

geraltofrivia wrote: post #204
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Amongst other gripes people have mentioned (and I agree with), here's another: cut. There does not seem to be a way to cut and paste a file/folder. The best I could figure out is to drag the icons, hold down the finger, and move the cursor to the desired folder on the sidebar (or another window) and release the finger. This is either extremely difficult to pull of, or I am less dexterous than I think I am. Why not ha…

Drag and drop has steadily gotten harder to use over the years. I have no explanation for it, it's maddening.

Not cutting files is deliberate, I think. What should the OS do if you cut files, and then don't paste them and cut something else? Put them back, put them in the Trash?

A sibling comment pointed out that there's a magic incantation for "paste and delete", but clearly the Mac way to do it is drag and drop.

Which used to be dead easy, and now I'm lucky if I get it the first time.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#297

Post by Nextgrid »

bayindirh wrote: post #291
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

> There's no way to create an empty file This is one of the features I never miss and don't use on any other DE (like KDE). I just open the app, create the file and save. Maybe it's just habit, but I personally doesn't find it as a needed feature. > There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) Just drag it where you want while pressing CMD? I know it's not cut but it prevents a lot of errors I think.…

"Clean up by" is still a manual thing you have to do regularly? My downloads folder looks like a mess because files constantly get added/deleted from it via the Dock.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#298

Post by throwaddzuzxd »

noahmasur wrote: post #273
throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

@coldtea already pointed out some tips, but some others to note: > - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned Press CMD-J to open up the visual option, you can auto group and sort, snap to grid (unsorted), choose a default view. > - No "parent folder"... You can either press CMD-UpArrow or just right click on the title bar to see all the folders above it. > It has less cool features (no t…

> Press CMD-J to open up the visual option, you can auto group and sort, snap to grid (unsorted), choose a default view.

I found this menu but missed the "default view" button, thanks!

It still boggles my mind that "non aligned on the grid" is the default though. It's a mess.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#299

Post by ricketycricket »

throwaddzuzxd wrote: post #205
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

The Finder is atrocious. It's the worst default macOS app and probably the worst program period I've ever used. It's been so dumbed down that it's basically unusable for anyone slightly experienced. - There's no way to create an empty file - There's no easy way to cut a file/folder (Cmd-x doesn't work) - There's no (?) way to keep everything consistently sorted and aligned - ~~Tags are useless and just take up space…

Can't make any excuses for Finder. I always reccomend Forklift for more advanced users. Dual-pane, midnight commander shortcuts, multi-rename, SFTP/S3 support, etc. https://binarynights.com

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#300

Post by philsnow »

geraltofrivia wrote: post #204
rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Amongst other gripes people have mentioned (and I agree with), here's another: cut. There does not seem to be a way to cut and paste a file/folder. The best I could figure out is to drag the icons, hold down the finger, and move the cursor to the desired folder on the sidebar (or another window) and release the finger. This is either extremely difficult to pull of, or I am less dexterous than I think I am. Why not ha…

the only possible thing I can think of that can explain this is that if you cut and then forget about the item, it just disappears eventually (reboot, copy other item, whatever).

that's one thing when it's copied text from some web page, but quite another when it's a file or folder.

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