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How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

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Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#261

Post by Bad_CRC »

hnlmorg wrote: post #149
least wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason that the return key is the 'least obvious' key to you is because you're used to that being the 'open' key on other operating systems.

On literally every other operating system. I've used dozens of platforms, some of them pretty obscure, some of them hobbyist, some of them were purpose built for hardware that stopped being manufactured 20, 30 or more years ago, and all of them supported return as a trigger in menus, be it graphical or text based. Finder really is the odd ball with regards to binding it to rename.

I understand the frustration and I'm with you that Finder is atrocious.

My head-cannon about this is that for consistency within macos, all actions must be cmd+something, so is cmd+O for opening a file. In the terminal you can also use the "open" command which opens the file or the directory (I use "open ." a lot, I find faster navigating in the shell that in the finder).

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#262

Post by bayindirh »

turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!)

You can just install Magnet. It's a little unobtrusive app which can do neat things with windows.

> Sleeping the mac does not sleep the mac, it wakes up at all sorts of times

Power Nap is useful. When I open my Mac in the morning everything is updated from mail to apps. It doesn't turn on fans on older Macs for smaller tasks too. You can turn it off.

> Every time the OS updates, I have to go through a setup process again, trying to upsell me on iCloud drive. Nothing updates as nicely as ChromeOS but I'd hope for at least a reboot and back to where I left off

I don't experience this except once-in-a-year release updates. Even in that case OS state including all the applications' state is restored for the last 6-7 years or so.

> TouchID for login works....but not often enough - it constantly pesters me for a password

Unless Touch-ID is disabled for something (long sleep, location change, reboot, etc.) It never failed to recognize my finger.

> Pressing enter renames a file rather than opens it. What?

This is a bit backwards at first, but when considered, it's logical. command+down enters the folders and files (and opens them in the corresponding application).

> The Finder is either named ironically or I'm not getting it - file paths are obscured, seeing file details is hidden behind a dialog.

Finder is neither advanced nor explicit like KDE's dolphin or a more advanced file manager like forklift, but it's hidden features are plenty. Also, the search engine (Spotlight) can find everything, so in fact Finder really finds. Just let it search.

As a Linux and Mac user, Windows feels off for a very long time for me. Mac feels more natural and Linux most flexible and verbose. At the end of the day, macOS has the most efficient use of space and allows deep productivity with less friction. This is my experience after using both for more than 15 years.

Moreover, I've found that trackpad gestures of MacBooks neatly integrate into daily routine and they disappear by becoming instinct. This is one of the best sides of apple ecosystem. One can use the device without thinking about using it. It provides enormous speed gains.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#263

Post by mcv »

For a long time I enjoyed my late 2011 unibody Macbook Pro, and it was pretty great. Certainly more intuitive than anything from Windows or Linux at the time.

It died a few years ago. I recently got a Macbook Pro from work, and weird stuff just keeps happening. I'm happily doing something, and suddenly everything goes all wobbly, or something suddenly zooms in. I have to put effort into hunting down the window I want, because alt-tab doesn't switch windows, only apps. ctrl+down gets me the windows from that app. Except when something is maximized, because then I need to remember where I left it if I want to switch to it.

I can't shake the impression that somewhere down the line, Apple lost their direction and started messing things up. The crappy keyboards they added are pretty infamous, but they also managed to make the desktop unintuitive.

Edit: also, why can't you drag and drop files anymore? This used to just work.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#264

Post by pmx »

tomp wrote: post #257
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

> - Pressing enter renames a file rather than opens it. What? Press space instead... mostly will "open" the file (preview it).

cmd and down arrow to actually open it. I'm used to it now but it still annoys me!

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#265

Post by alkonaut »

Yaina wrote: post #224

So, I won't claim that installing software that is not in the Mac App Store is a totally intuitive process. Still...I kinda think it's neat. On Windows you download an installer, it does some magic (usually asking for administrator rights. scary) and then somehow the program is...somewhere. It's linked on the desktop, you can search for it, but it's unclear what happened. On macOS Programs are essentially treated as…

> On Windows you download an installer, it does some magic (usually asking for administrator rights. scary) and then somehow the program is...somewhere. It's linked on the desktop, you can search for it, but it's unclear what happened.

The downside of the legacy windows install process is that it's "scary", prone to accidentally installing malware etc. However, the process is straightforward. The intuitive thing (going to whatever you downloaded and opening the file i.e. the default action of enter or double click) and then answering only yes/ok will let you install the program. Exactly where it ends up is of course not obvious - but for most software you'll find it the "normal" way - you hit the start button and type something.

What baffles me about the MacOS one is that it's opaque. I expect the default action for a downloaded piece of software is to make me able to use it, as quickly as possible. I get how the whole drag dance works (barely) but other than for security-through-obscurity reasons I have no idea why it can't be the default action (e.g. if I double click a downloaded file, it would ask me if I meant to install the program)!

> drag them into your Applications folder (which is just convention, you could put them anywhere)

I think it's close to being great, and it certainly has more potential than the windows legacy system (which for obvious reasons can't be improved upon much!). But if I'm forced to google a few times before installing a downloaded container something is not intuitive. Meanwhile my kid can install any app, and some malware, on my windows machine. Just by guessing.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#266

Post by ftio »

mcv wrote: post #263

For a long time I enjoyed my late 2011 unibody Macbook Pro, and it was pretty great. Certainly more intuitive than anything from Windows or Linux at the time. It died a few years ago. I recently got a Macbook Pro from work, and weird stuff just keeps happening. I'm happily doing something, and suddenly everything goes all wobbly, or something suddenly zooms in. I have to put effort into hunting down the window I want…

Protip: Cmd+tilde (~) cycles through windows in the current app.

Coming from Windows, it can be annoying, but once you build the muscle memory, it can actually be quite nice to have the two methods separated.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#267

Post by thefz »

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

Finder is irritating but don't let me started on iTunes if you want to manage a "physical" mp3 collection...

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#268

Post by adolph »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #233
turkeywelder wrote: post #203

Recent M1 user here - I had a PowerPC mac back in the Leopard/Tiger days. I thought OSx would have come on leaps and bounds since then. It's....more or less unchanged. As well as this crazy installer thing, there's quite a bit about Macs that just seems off.. My list of "things that don't seem right" as a long term Windows/ChromeOS user - Window snapping isn't built in outside of fullscreen mode (seriously?!) - Sleep…

Window snapping exists in macOS, hold the option key while hovering over the zoom button and the snapping options pop up in a tooltip. Personally, I like that macOS is more or less unchanged. It’s familiar, and I don’t have to worry about big sweeping changes like Windows 8 or Gnome 3 and Gnome 40. For everything else there’s usually a tiny utility app you can install the gives you the functionality and runs in the b…

As long time Mac and relatively recent cross platform user, native window snapping is a joke in macOS made tolerable by Magnet. Option just changes the green button mode from new workspace (or whatever its called) to whole screen. In most Windows OSes the eponymous key plus an arrow will cycle the UI window through helpful positions of whole, half, quarter.

The sibling comment challenges the parent regarding the importance of window snapping. I used to think it wasn't a big deal. I was accustomed to mousing windows here and there and seeing bits of other things behind. After using iOS I have a new appreciation for focus, simplicity and reduced non-functional effort.

A significant amount of user-time in a standard desktop GUI is spent changing application and window contexts. Why wouldn't it be as much a first class concern as brushed metal and lickability?

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/magnet/id441258766?mt=12

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#269

Post by samatman »

rchaud wrote: post #14

I bought a Mac in 2014 after a lifetime of using Windows. I never understood why people called it easier to use than Windows. Maybe this sentiment is a holdover from an earlier era when people would mindlessly run executables and zip files attached in emails and AIM messages. From a UI perspective, it's 90% identical to windows. From a UX perspective though, something fundamental like Finder is still not up to the jo…

> Why is it that when I click Finder, nothing actually opens?

This would be an example of the 10% of the UI which isn't identical.

One of the fundamental differences between macOS and Windows is the menu bar. There's only one at a time, and it belongs to the program which has the focus. A corollary of this is that you don't need a window to have a program.

It's not just Finder, most macOS programs are perfectly happy having no window open.

I've been on OS X since 2003, and it took me a second to figure out what you were talking about here, because if I don't see the window I expect to see, my eyes immediately flick to the upper-left corner. If I see what I expect to see, I've probably already typed Cmd-N or Cmd-O, depending.

There's a lot to complain about with Finder; my personal peeve is that I want two-finger-swipe-right to go back one directory, like the back button in browsers. But this particular behavior is just macOS working the way that it does. If you close all open windows in Preview and quit, then start it again, it will do the same thing.

Re: How Intuitive Are Macs Really?

#270

Post by dehrmann »

handrous wrote: post #132
TulliusCicero wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, by default Finder seems to hide directory structure from you. This seems to be Apple thinking it'll confuse people if they can see 'up' directories, but I think just as often it confuses people like me who are trying and failing to go up. I use all three major desktop OSes regularly now, and overall Windows just feels like the most user-friendly and straightforward, though of course it too has issues (e.g. vari…

The filesystem is super confusing to tons of users. The reason people put crap all over their desktops is because they "lose" it if they put it anywhere else, while the desktop always stays "where it is". I don't think anyone's come up with a good solution to that problem, yet (Apple's isn't very good, and Windows' similar moves with its defaults aren't any better) and we're far enough into computers being common tha…

> The filesystem is super confusing to tons of users

It's basically hidden entirely in iOS, probably for this reason.

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