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Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

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41–49 of 49 posts

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#41
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Great leaders are like surfers riding a big wave. It's easy to get distracted by the surfer and forget that the wave is really the important part." I used to think that. I've recanted. I'm still not 100% sure why leaders are so important, but the evidence I've personally seen over the years is pretty clear. My best guesses are some combination of: 1. It is true that the performance of a team is given an upper bound…

in practice, leadership is the thing for which demand is much higher than supply, not team talent. I'm not sure I buy that. I don't have strong evidence against it, but its a gut based on experience. What I've tended to see is that great leaders tend not to be able to replicate their success. But talented people/teams tend to be succesfull, regardless of the leader. To put it another way, a great leader, moved to a n…

Jobs could go anywhere and get top talent. His ability to lead is also his ability to recruit. I'm not saying he doesn't bring other things to the table, but I'd say that a good percentage of it is recruiting.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but the problem with that claim is that it is practically unfalsifiable. Nobody has or is going to try an experiment where they put someone like Jobs elsewhere and deliberately constrain his recruitment access only to average or slightly mediocre people. So, we can assume it's because dynamic, powerful leaders attract good talent, but I don't think there's a solid empirical basis for that without consistently studying what happens when they are specifically denied good talent.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#42
post #14

This almost sounds like a comparison between growth of China and India, where China just gets the things done when it needs to while India lags behind trying to gather people's consensus; and I believe that neither of them are correct. Reasons are pretty simple. If you are a bully, things are bound to fall apart sooner or later while if you are a total pushover, you don't even own what you are doing. I have seen both…

Why put the comparison between two countries in our point about leadership styles. Countries are not people , a leader in a corporate setup has a fairly definitive goals (increase revenue) and can hire/fire people. But countries are to be governed so that every one has a equitable choice.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#43
The CEO decision at Pfizer is a horrible example, if you ask me. All we know is that one manager was perceived as assertive and occasionally "abrasive" while the other one was "fair" and then when the abrasive guy was picked, they conclude it was because of his "toughness" because some random analyst said so.

There could be a million different reasons why he was picked over her. For one, it might simply be discrimination from the owners and/or share holders or one particularly influential share holder. Or he was better connected and/or was playing politics better than she did. Or for many other reasons...

And the other study just showed how a first impression will influence how we perceive people. They have absolutely nothing backing up the theory that a "fair" manager will lose to an "unfair, tough" manager in promotions.

If you ask me, they are missing quite a few links and connections in their theory and are mixing correlation with causation.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#44

I don't follow the logic in the examples at all. First, we have a comparison between the assertive McKinnell and the respectful Katen. But there is no mention of 'fairness' to be found. Then we have a study of students that found that ruder people seemed to be more powerful, but I can't figure out how that relates at all to wanting to give more power to less fair people. I'm not going so far as to say the conclusion…

I have the same impression - their conclusions must have already been there and they just plugged in a few studies that might sound relevant and they left quite a few gaping holes there.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#45
Machiavelli wrote about this 500 years ago (http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=775#chapter_76114), and interestingly enough he could not find any definitive answer one way or the other, maybe these guys are smarter than him, I cannot tell:

> how manlius torquatus by harshness, and valerius corvinus by gentleness, acquired equal glory.

> I conclude, then, that the character and conduct of Valerius is advantageous in a prince, but pernicious in a citizen, not only as regards his country, but also in regard to himself; pernicious for the state, because they prepare the way for a tyranny; and for himself, because in rendering him suspect to his fellow-citizens, it constrains them to take precautions against him that will prove detrimental to him. And, on the other hand, I affirm that the severity of Manlius is dangerous to the interests of a prince, but favorable to a citizen, and above all to the country. And it seldom turns to his prejudice, unless the hatred which it excites should be embittered by the suspicions which his great reputation and other virtues may inspire; as we will show when speaking of Camillus in the next chapter.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#46
post #4

I've had 3 kinds of bosses: 1. Hardass who pushes everyone to the limit, tends to micro-manage, frequently overrules consensus with his own views. 2. Total pushover who agrees with everything. Constantly seeks consensus and rule by democracy, never pushes anyone and just tries to be everyone's friend. 3. Somewhere in between the two above. Seeks consensus and lets people make mistakes in order to help them learn. Som…

It gets worse. I had the following variations of #1 and #2:

an authoritarian boss that overruled everything - as I came to learn, because he was underqualified and didn't understand what we were proposing, so he tried to stick to the status quo and rule through obscurity of some key components;

and a pushover that agreed with everything - once again, because she didn't know anything. It meant we effectively had no boss (and no direction, and no focus or getting "in the zone"). Both were in the same company (awful HR I guess).

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#47
"At Pfizer, a cohort of promising executives associated with Katen resigned after McKinnell took over. He himself was pushed into retirement by the board in 2006 because of the company’s disappointing performance. Shareholder outrage over his rich retirement package followed."

sounds like the real problem here is the board valuing the perception of power over actual managerial competence.

I think this problem is endemic; the thing is, business is hard. Most people give up on trying to find the best person for the job and go with the best-looking person, or the person who other people think is the best.

The thing is, "the wisdom of the crowd" works fairly well if all members of the crowd make up their own mind independently. But that's not how it works; nearly everyone decides largely based on what they think other people think, which breaks the whole system.

I think the rise of mutual funds, index funds, and other vehicles to invest without thinking about the companies you are buying are making this problem worse. People are giving their money to people who make money as long as they don't do anything wildly divergent from the herd.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#48
post #13
post #4

I've had 3 kinds of bosses: 1. Hardass who pushes everyone to the limit, tends to micro-manage, frequently overrules consensus with his own views. 2. Total pushover who agrees with everything. Constantly seeks consensus and rule by democracy, never pushes anyone and just tries to be everyone's friend. 3. Somewhere in between the two above. Seeks consensus and lets people make mistakes in order to help them learn. Som…

The thing about #1 is that they probably aren't trying to help the company succeed. It's more likely that they're trying to take the company for a ride to meet their own ends. Any success they have is only going to be in the short term and only in the interests of posturing. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates can get away with this because their companies by and large are theirs. While #2 isn't a very effective leader, their…

I'm highly unconvinced by your statement that #1 is taking people for a ride. If anything the pushover (#2) is the one doing so: he gets to be people's friend thereby gaining a certain amount of protection from the consequences of his actions.

#1 is probably going to alienate a lot of people and make himself vulnerable to a whisper campaign etc.

Anyway, that's been my experience.

Re: Why Fair Bosses Fall Behind

#49
post #45

Machiavelli wrote about this 500 years ago ( http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=775#chapter_76114 ), and interestingly enough he could not find any definitive answer one way or the other, maybe these guys are smarter than him, I cannot tell: > how manlius torquatus by harshness, and valerius corvinus by gentleness, acquired equal glory. > I conclude, then, that the character and conduct of Valerius is advantage…

Interesting link. I took a read of that chapter, and found this paragraph additionally enlightening:

> I say that the conduct of Manlius is more praiseworthy and less perilous for a citizen who lives under the laws of a republic; inasmuch as it operates entirely for the benefit of the state, and can never favor private ambition. For by such conduct a man can never create any partisans for himself; severe towards everybody, and devoted only to the public good, a commander by such means will never gain any particular friends, such as we have called partisans. Thus this course of conduct can only be of the greatest benefit and value in a republic, as it looks only to the public good, and is in no way open to the suspicion of individual usurpation. But with the system of Valerius, quite the contrary is the case; for although it produces the same effects so far as the public service is concerned, yet it is calculated to inspire doubts and mistrust, on account of the special devotion of the soldiers to their chief to which it will give rise, and which might be productive of bad effects against the public liberty, in case of his being continued in command for any length of time.

So Machiavelli is basically saying in the context of a republic, it is better for a commander to rule through terror/harshness (what the article calls power) rather than respect. The reason being is that gaining respect will cause the commander to gain friends (the person commanding via terror will have none/few friends) and make that commander a risk to the state by being a potential tyrant.

Given this, it's not surprising that Machiavelli advocates Manlius over Valerius, since the behavior of Valerius is in the end disadvantageous to everybody else.

However, does this really apply to a company? Most simply aren't run as a republic, but more of a benevolent dictatorship. So even if a if a manager does rise up to be the new CEO (a "tyrant"), it's probably because whoever appoints the CEO (the board?) thought he would make a better CEO than the last guy, so in the end the company is the one that benefits -- not just the individual.

In fact the article later points out (on the second page) that the CEO who ruled through harshness/terror was later kicked out for poor performance. Maybe commanding through respect is better for companies after all?

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