Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation • Hacker News Board

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#251

Post by MathYouF » Sat, May 22, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

henearkr wrote: post #250

MathYouF wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japanese feel compelled to defend their group because a lot of foreigners impose their cultural expectations on them, and misunderstand the intent behind why certain things are done the way they're done. And because they genuinely love their society/culture. Never met a single far right Japanese nationalist living there over a year. But nearly all looked at the pros and cons of their society, and felt theirs were bet…

First of all, you need to understand that many Japanese people want to change their country. Yes, in Japan too, "left" and "right" are 50/50. The recognition that a form of organization is imperfect is very different from "not loving it". For example I want to improve the way my computer program works, that does not mean I hate it, that's pretty much the contrary. As much as I love Japan, I want it to be better. New…

I appreciate the time taken to give a detailed reply, especially from someone with experience living in Japan, and who had once a possibly similar view as I do currently.

That said, as much as you think I've integrated right wing fallacies (assuming the progressive Japanese you've spoken to have spent significant amounts of time living outside of society, something you equated to the right wing label of anti-Japanese) you have also integrated left wing fallacies (pro-{new,futuristic,improved}-Japan" and "pro-{traditional,old,unchanged}-Japan"/that left wing thinking is oppressed in Japan, the country with the largest communist party in the democratic world).

The main argument of people who don't agree with you is that many progressive policies aren't, in fact, creating an "improved" Japan, and are just upholding western values that don't serve them any benefit.

I'm also a vegan socialist, and have spent plenty of weekends hanging with friends who frequent Shinjuku-gyoemmae, if you know what I mean, and have been vocal about all of this to people in Japan, and experienced no push back.

Perhaps I am shielded from critique being non-Japanese myself, but to call Japan a country dominated by Conservatism feels very different from the one I experienced, and seems to me that it only appears that way to the very most demanding progressives who are just as quick to label normal Japanese people as right wing. Everyone against them seems extremist to an extremist, so I have trouble believing your view isn't also deeply oppositely biased and not a clear view of the society.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#252

Post by skhr0680 » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:57 AM UTC

MathYouF wrote: post #248

skhr0680 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue. I think the third option is that are just as frustrated about the rules as you, but what are they going to do about them? From their perspective, it’s easier to suck it up and be free to get on with their lives as opposed to rocking the…

You've both just completely missed the real underlying thing going on in that situation. To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors. To question of if the village has the legal authority to make them do something, and implying that if they don't then the Japanese person has no more problem…

> To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors.

I don't think so. I'd say 90% of the time they don't know who set the rules or why they are that way. They just follow them to avoid attracting the attention of the local busybody, there's always one. That extends to many situations in Japanese society too, it's why you rarely see people confronting, eg troublemakers and bullies in public, or until somewhat recently, at work. They'd rather ignore them and get on with their day than become a target.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#253

Post by deanCommie » Sun, May 23, 2021, 7:04 AM UTC

astrange wrote: post #181

henearkr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

Whenever I've met a French speaker in Japan (which happens surprisingly often) I have always been amazed at their ability to be just as direct in Japanese as they are in French. It turns my ears red and I'm American. I don't think it's about their opinions, it's just a language you have to be more polite in. Doesn't feel any different from the South or UK to me.

Fired Vancouver Waiter: I'm not rude, I'm just French [1]

I work in the tech industry. As a senior engineer, I've had to mediate MULTIPLE misunderstandings over the years (and also hearing random complaints) about French tech workers being perceived by native English speakers, Indians, Asians as condescending, offensive, or rude.

Having worked with them closely and spent personal time trying to understand them, I know it's not in their hearts. Humans are humans. Rude ones, polite ones, friendly ones, impersonal ones. On a culture-wide scale we all average out. But the language is a problem. I almost feel bad for them.

And so I've literally had to tell people " isn't rude, or condescending to you. They're just French."

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43507949

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#254

Post by bonoboTP » Sun, May 23, 2021, 10:18 AM UTC

poglet wrote: post #172

hardwaregeek wrote: post #164

Funnily enough I’ve had to explain this to my friends when ordering in Chinese or other ethic restaurants. Something like “hi, how are you? I’d like the roast duck with rice please, oh and with a Diet Coke too?” is actually quite confusing and a lot to parse when you’re a native Cantonese speaker rushing to serve 30 people. Instead “roast duck with rice, Diet Coke”, while rude sounding, is much preferable. It may see…

I ended up with the prawn burger (KFC Japan) because I made the mistake of mentioning that I dont want the prawn burger.

I once had a sore throat and tried to order a drink that wasn't cold in a language I could barely speak, but I really tried to emphasize the not, and I ended up with an extra cold drink.

It's difficult to communicate effectively and you need the experience of failing several times in order to learn.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#255

Post by bonoboTP » Sun, May 23, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #220

eatonphil wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was my experience too. I got into a taxi with my wife and I tried to make sure he took credit card. I asked "credit card" in as clear English I could. The driver was confused. Tried again. My wife asked "curedito cado" and he said yes immediately. (Caveat, wife is Korean but Korean transliteration of credit card is not that same as Japanese.) I thought people would understand clear, slow English (I assumed after…

Nothing to do with Japan and Japanese, but in my experience the way that consontants sound in most English accents makes them hard to identify correctly for most non-native English speakers. And the same goes for French also - except in French the vowels also are weird. But now that I think of it, actually, so do the English vowels. "eoouhw" for "o"? What? Other European languages have idiosyncratic pronounciations o…

Yes English has this round, airy, flowy, smeared out, rolled-together pronunciation, most vowels are diphtongs, they are not constant but take an "arc" when pronounced. Consonants are often aspirated as well,or dropped or reduced. Many other languages are much more straightforward.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#256

Post by bonoboTP » Sun, May 23, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

hnjst wrote: post #169

lebuffon wrote: post #36

Two thoughts come to mind. 1. At one time in human history, not long ago, it was mandatory to have some facility in at least a 2nd language to claim you had a higher education. Partial mastery of a 2nd language would help native English speakers "get" what it's like for the non-native people and might help them adjust there speaking style. IMHO we have allowed "higher" education in English speaking countries to devol…

"Lingua Franca" refers to an earlier period in history when French was the common language used across Europe, among the nobility in particular. You can read it as "common language for international communication" to understand why it's used to qualify the "globish" variant of English nowadays. Admittedly, using a latin expression literally describing French to mean English may be slightly confusing...

No, that's a misconception. It doesn't refer to French. It's about the language of the Franks.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#257

Post by bonoboTP » Sun, May 23, 2021, 10:59 AM UTC

MandieD wrote: post #213

Teaching English to adults for three months here in Germany was excellent preparation for working with non-native English speakers. I learned how to aim my own word choices and pronunciation, how to extract meaning from garbled sentences, and how to find non-disruptive ways to rephrase things to confirm that I understood them the way the speaker intended and to help them confirm that they understood me correctly.

Yes, but it's not really understood by most people (not just English). People think they are an expert at their own language in every aspect and can teach it well, but it's not so. For example when there's a non native Hungarian speaker, many of my fellow Hungarians are really bad at helping out with a difficulty, they don't understand what the person is actually asking, they go on a tangent and explain something totally unrelated, explain it wrong etc. But they are convinced they know what they are talking about.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#258

Post by MathYouF » Sun, May 23, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

skhr0680 wrote: post #252

MathYouF wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've both just completely missed the real underlying thing going on in that situation. To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors. To question of if the village has the legal authority to make them do something, and implying that if they don't then the Japanese person has no more problem…

> To the Japanese person, the main question on their mind is is the thing the village council is telling them to do in the best interests of the community and their neighbors. I don't think so. I'd say 90% of the time they don't know who set the rules or why they are that way. They just follow them to avoid attracting the attention of the local busybody, there's always one. That extends to many situations in Japanese…

Any time I encountered a rule that seemed strange I would ask my closest Japanese friends (girlfriend, her parents, friends) and they always gave a reasonable answer that almost always was related to the rule upholding collectice civility, safety, or productivity. And they happily acknowledged the possible drawbacks and were willing to consider if the law was actually good.

Another thing they value is to not make change until one is certain it is actually an improvement, and they assume existing rules were made with the same care. The above can be very frustrating because there's some changes that are obviously for the better and some rules not made with the best intent or carefulest consideration.

But the idea that Japanese are all cowards dismisses that the demure personality comes from a collective cultural agreement that requested change must be thoroughly considered, and that it is in some way implying the previous makers of a rule were unwise or lacked consideration. So to propose a change without being what they'd consider a brute or idiot would take maybe more energy than that person is willing to give for the issue.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#259

Post by henearkr » Mon, May 24, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

MathYouF wrote: post #251

henearkr wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, you need to understand that many Japanese people want to change their country. Yes, in Japan too, "left" and "right" are 50/50. The recognition that a form of organization is imperfect is very different from "not loving it". For example I want to improve the way my computer program works, that does not mean I hate it, that's pretty much the contrary. As much as I love Japan, I want it to be better. New…

I appreciate the time taken to give a detailed reply, especially from someone with experience living in Japan, and who had once a possibly similar view as I do currently. That said, as much as you think I've integrated right wing fallacies (assuming the progressive Japanese you've spoken to have spent significant amounts of time living outside of society, something you equated to the right wing label of anti-Japanese…

I have many things to reply to this, but I don't feel like Hacker News, and especially this sumbission, is the right place for that.

Please drop me an email if you want.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#260

Post by hnjst » Mon, May 24, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #256

hnjst wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lingua Franca" refers to an earlier period in history when French was the common language used across Europe, among the nobility in particular. You can read it as "common language for international communication" to understand why it's used to qualify the "globish" variant of English nowadays. Admittedly, using a latin expression literally describing French to mean English may be slightly confusing...

No, that's a misconception. It doesn't refer to French. It's about the language of the Franks.

Thanks for the correction, I was indeed wrong (parts of my comments were based on true facts but parts were clearly wrong, which is harmful). Honest mistake, I'm glad you spotted it so that I avoid propagating it in the future.

To be dishonestly picky, French is somehow etymologically the "language of the Franks"... However, from what I just read, while "lingua franca" designates a vehicular language (which is the main thing to remember about the expression), it was originally used to refer to a simplified mix of languages (Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, French among others).

Thanks again, I guess I made long ago a lazy intellectual shortcut conflating my somehow credible explanation with the actual origin of the expression.