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Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

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Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#211

Post by tragomaskhalos »

Tarsul wrote: post #209
detaro wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example/anecdote for the last part? Not sure I know what you mean.

(not op) well, we Germans are very direct. So we would write something like "Can you give me the coordinates? Thanks in advance." whereas a Brit would like it if it was written as "I would very much like to get the coordinates from you. Can you direct them to me? Thank you very much. Much appreciated." (well, my impersonation of a Brit is not the best since I am too German in this respect)

I'm not convinced by that example: I am British and would use exactly the same phrasing as your first example; the "thanks in advance" takes the edge off it perfectly well. The second example is like a bad impression of a subservient butler or something !

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#212

Post by henearkr »

astrange wrote: post #181
henearkr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

Whenever I've met a French speaker in Japan (which happens surprisingly often) I have always been amazed at their ability to be just as direct in Japanese as they are in French. It turns my ears red and I'm American. I don't think it's about their opinions, it's just a language you have to be more polite in. Doesn't feel any different from the South or UK to me.

I'd say it's more cultural than linguistic.

Pure politeness is as well present in French, but in Japan it's an aversion to openly and directly confront others.

You don't have it in Osaka as much as in Tokyo or Kyoto (that's why I'd think it's not the language), and in Tokyo people are overly stressed by their work, commuting, and overpopulation in general, so they need to compensate it by an impressive spectrum of skills for passive agessivity (which is not really better).

Disclaimer of competing interests: I'm a French guy in Japan.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#213

Post by MandieD »

Teaching English to adults for three months here in Germany was excellent preparation for working with non-native English speakers. I learned how to aim my own word choices and pronunciation, how to extract meaning from garbled sentences, and how to find non-disruptive ways to rephrase things to confirm that I understood them the way the speaker intended and to help them confirm that they understood me correctly.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#214

Post by Iv »

henearkr wrote: post #168
Iv wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a French living in Japan one of the things I quickly learned is that if I complain about something while showing even a hint of anger or annoyingness, my interlocutor will take it personally, even if he/she is not involved about the thing as well.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

No it was about other persons. I remember one specific instance where a friend explained to me what a neighbor asked of us for a property we manage together and I complain that these demands are really annoying especially after we had spent some money and time satisfying other demands that I personally did not find grounded. My friend then asked "why are you so angry at me?". "I am not! I am complaining!"

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#215

Post by Iv »

henearkr wrote: post #212
astrange wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I've met a French speaker in Japan (which happens surprisingly often) I have always been amazed at their ability to be just as direct in Japanese as they are in French. It turns my ears red and I'm American. I don't think it's about their opinions, it's just a language you have to be more polite in. Doesn't feel any different from the South or UK to me.

I'd say it's more cultural than linguistic. Pure politeness is as well present in French, but in Japan it's an aversion to openly and directly confront others. You don't have it in Osaka as much as in Tokyo or Kyoto (that's why I'd think it's not the language), and in Tokyo people are overly stressed by their work, commuting, and overpopulation in general, so they need to compensate it by an impressive spectrum of sk…

Yes, it is not about politeness, it is about conflict. In France, being frank is a quality, in Japan it is a mark of immaturity. Grown-ups are supposed to communicate their opinions implicitly.

I stopped finding it "interesting and different" when I realized that it led to a LOT of miscommunications even among Japaneses and could end up ruin lives because of the unwillingness to point out even minor things.

Happy to hear this is mostly a Tokyo thing (though it does extend to my coutryside in the Chiba peninsula)

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#216

Post by henearkr »

Iv wrote: post #214
henearkr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

No it was about other persons. I remember one specific instance where a friend explained to me what a neighbor asked of us for a property we manage together and I complain that these demands are really annoying especially after we had spent some money and time satisfying other demands that I personally did not find grounded. My friend then asked "why are you so angry at me?". "I am not! I am complaining!"

Wow I had the same "backfire" experience saying that the neighbor/neighborhood ("kinjo") was forcing stupid behavior on them and that they were not compelled to obey them nor to fear them.

To me it seemed like the kinjo is too hot an issue to criticize. OR maybe, obeying to the kinjo is virtue signaling, and criticizing their decision to obey is denying their virtue.

It did not occcur to me that it could be a more deep cultural difference, let alone a linguistic one.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#217

Post by Iv »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #191
henearkr wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? Japanese people very easily feel compelled to defend their group, because if not they are often treated as "anti-japanese" by the most right-wing (which are the most vocal) of their relations/neighbors. This in turn leads to a lot of self-censorship.

> Was you complaint about something related to Japan or the life there or the administration? I think you're on the wrong track; some people just take everything personally. Compare this story from an American married to an American: ( https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=49908 ) > Early in our marriage I’d find myself in the middle of situations like this: >> Shamus is struggling with some ridiculous multi…

Took us years to adjust with my wife. I complain far less, I make sure to tell "I am not angry at you" even when I find it obvious. She starts complaining like a French as well <3

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#218

Post by eatonphil »

sebmellen wrote: post #203
phreack wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're in, say, Japan, where most people know a bit of English, it's important to be able to break yours so they understand you better. Even more so, being able to speak broken Japan-flavored English would be perfect if your goal is to convey a simple message by any means. Most tourists don't realize accent and pronunciation could make a word unrecognizable to non native speakers.

To give an example of the difference: "Robot" in standard middle American would probably yield a confused stare. "Roboto" pronounced like an overly effusive Italian would most likely be understood.

That was my experience too. I got into a taxi with my wife and I tried to make sure he took credit card. I asked "credit card" in as clear English I could. The driver was confused. Tried again. My wife asked "curedito cado" and he said yes immediately. (Caveat, wife is Korean but Korean transliteration of credit card is not that same as Japanese.)

I thought people would understand clear, slow English (I assumed after school they'd most pick up from American/British movies?) but I guess after a while they only hear the local transliterated version of words. Or only remember that version? I don't know.

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#219

Post by behythoyg »

ezoe wrote: post #101
jakub_g wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meeting in person and regularly is extremely underrated. This can happen also within a single culture. When two companies do some business together but instead of meeting often and talking directly (or zoom), spend weeks to carefully craft emails and never talk face to face.

It is exploited. There are so many evil politicians who order to murder people or made the laws which restrict human rights. But if you meet them in person, you will definitely feel they are nice person.

This is a really interesting point.

Malcolm Gladwell: "The people who got Hitler right were those who never met him, and the people who got him wrong were those who did spend time with him."

Here's a clip from an interview with Gladwell on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvOilwY0yOQ&t=178s

Re: Native speakers are hard to understand in a lingua franca situation

#220

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

eatonphil wrote: post #218
sebmellen wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an example of the difference: "Robot" in standard middle American would probably yield a confused stare. "Roboto" pronounced like an overly effusive Italian would most likely be understood.

That was my experience too. I got into a taxi with my wife and I tried to make sure he took credit card. I asked "credit card" in as clear English I could. The driver was confused. Tried again. My wife asked "curedito cado" and he said yes immediately. (Caveat, wife is Korean but Korean transliteration of credit card is not that same as Japanese.) I thought people would understand clear, slow English (I assumed after…

Nothing to do with Japan and Japanese, but in my experience the way that consontants sound in most English accents makes them hard to identify correctly for most non-native English speakers.

And the same goes for French also - except in French the vowels also are weird. But now that I think of it, actually, so do the English vowels. "eoouhw" for "o"? What?

Other European languages have idiosyncratic pronounciations of consonants, and Danish in particular is unpronounceable and undecipherable by anyone but the Danish (Source: my friend learns Danish and says the Danish have telepathy, which is apparently a standard joke in other Scandinavian countries with languages derived from Old Norse. Also :P).

What makes English consonants sound weird to my Greek ears is the way they are always a bit... airy? An "r" is an "aahh'r". An "s" is an "ehssss". A "d" is a "dheeh". And so on. In Spanish, "r" is "RRRR", "s" is "SS" and "d" is "D'". And so it is in Greek and in Italian also. And in most Balkan or slavic languages, etc. The Germans say "krchhh'" when they want to say "r" but OK, it's German, they don't mean you no harm. The French say "erggh'", I guess, I can't really do it justice in writing. But try imagining how it is to be a native of a non-Indoeuropean language and trying to understand the airy consontants and drawn-out vowels of English. Hell. Or, well... 'eohll.

Speaking of the French, guys, I speak French since I was 2 and I also speak English. I assure you, they are not supposed to sound the same. Please believe me.

(big :p in this comment, OK?)

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