Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#791

Post by chitowneats » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:18 PM UTC

darkerside wrote: post #768

madrox wrote: post #144

I'm not sure where we go from here, but not being able to escape anxiety-inducing situations in a workplace is the definition of a toxic work environment. I don't think the answer is a return to 20th century "no politics at work," but at the FAANG I worked at, politics was impossible to avoid. Even the desire to be apolitical is itself criticized at worst and not respected at best. Work doesn't afford the use of the…

Anxiety is a normal emotion. If it's pervasive it can certainly be a problem, but I'll also point out that anxiety inducing situations can have nothing to do with politics, of course. People who approach others like this are putting themselves out there. They are just as at risk, if not more, as you would be by expressing your own responses in a non threatening way. If you don't know how to do that, I suggest you lea…

This is absolutely ridiculous.

Please, people, do NOT be honest about your conservative or non-woke political positions in this industry. You will absolutely be punished for them by your peers. It is not in any situation ever worth it. Clock in, clock out, take the check, and always always always keep interviewing constantly because they will have no issues firing you arbitrarily.

Work at a large enough company and the woke literally have an entire division of the company (DEI) dedicated to finding reasons not to hire you in the first place, reasons to not promote you, and identifying ways in which your opinions make others feel "unsafe", etc. The entire deck is stacked against you unless you blend in.

"Bring your whole self to work" is bait. It's how they identify friend and foe. Do not fall for it. Pretend to be apolitical if you must. It probably won't work 100%, but giving up plausible deniability is not in your interest.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#792

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:21 PM UTC

xg15 wrote: post #688

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. Congrats, this is a political opinion.

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#793

Post by baryphonic » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:25 PM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #582

baryphonic wrote: post #449

> Coinbase and Basecamp, which each lost 60 employees after their bosses changed the rules, have apparently been inundated with applications from people wanting to work for politics-free firms. Basecamp lost 20 employees. 60 would be nearly their entire workforce. Coinbase did indeed lose 60 people out of around 1200 at the time.[0] [0] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-10-08...

I wonder if there is such a thing as a "politics free" job listing site?

`unwoke.hr` was one attempt, but I think it was even more poorly-engineered than Parler and was immediately trolled into oblivion.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#794

Post by mbg721 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:27 PM UTC

cgrealy wrote: post #156

nitrogen wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supply of non woke workers just isn't there The responses to the Basecamp and Coinbase announcements were equally mixed between people who wanted to avoid them, and people who want to seek them out. There are plenty of people who want work to be about working together on work. I for one want work to be welcoming and productive for everyone. Ironically, the best way to accomplish that is to focus on work, and not…

> I for one want work to be welcoming and productive for everyone. Ironically, the best way to accomplish that is to focus on work, and not non-work. Sure, if you’re a white, middle-aged, straight, cis male (speaking as one myself). But for other people, it’s not as easy to “leave your politics at home”, especially if you’re politics are “can I please be paid fairly in comparison to other workers” or “sorry, I’m late…

The "saying you don't have a position is an endorsement of the status quo" argument implies that the entire world needs to stop until your favorite problem is fixed. That's a recipe for getting to the political equilibrium where anti-abortion voters live.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#795

Post by wpietri » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:31 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #752

wpietri wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

Do you know the expression 'no politics or religion'? That is because you can't create a nice and fun environment where people start clashing over these topics. You can discuss personal things, make jokes with your colleagues, etc. I think that is a very healthy environment. An environment where people have strong opinions on politics an religion is never a nice environment. Never. So I think it's fair that in a work…

Oh? Why don't you list the topics you think of as political, ones that should be ruled as out of bounds? If you do that, you can pretty quickly see that what you are doing is practicing politics.

I agree that the workplace shouldn't be filled with random, irrelevant contention. But the current crop of "no politics" rules aren't about that. They are about taking topics that are material to the workplace and preventing people from discussing them so as to favor the political interests of particular people and groups.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#796

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:31 PM UTC

kemonocode wrote: post #162

They're reaping what they've sowed, so I don't exactly feel bad about big tech firms trying to flee "wokeness" (read: performative activism that hurts its causes more than it helps them) and finding out they won't be able to do so that easily, as it's exactly the kind of environment they've cultivated and the sort of people they've catered to for the past decade. Everything you do can be construed as a political stat…

[deleted]

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#797

Post by Amezarak » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:36 PM UTC

nailer wrote: post #601

lliamander wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beliefs aren't chosen, or at least they are very "sticky". What you chose is how you let those beliefs inform your actions

Yes they are. Race and sex and sexual attraction are innate qualities. People can and do change their beliefs - I’m not sure why anyone would say otherwise as they can easily confirm this for themselves.

Setting aside the question of whether beliefs are influenced by genetics, there's no dichotomy between 'innate' and 'choice.' My religion or political views may not be 'innate' (whatever that means), but they are also not a choice. Can they change over time? Yes!

But not because I woke up and made the free choice that today, I will believe something else. You cannot simply decide to truly believe something else in the same way I could choose between two appetizers on the menu. You cannot choose to legitimately hold a belief. (You could choose to pretend to hold a belief.) If you don't believe me, try choosing to believe Nazi ideology is right and true.

I would actually say sexual orientation is quite similar. Someone cannot simply choose their sexual orientation. A huge conflux of factors come into play, such that people develop a sexual orientation. It may change as we 'discover' new things about ourselves, but there's no choice involved in how we feel.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#798

Post by mbg721 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:39 PM UTC

efitz wrote: post #165

> according to a new Harris poll commissioned by Paradigm, a diversity consultancy, more than two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work I just plain do not believe this poll.

Some subset of adults want their work to provide the same warm and fuzzy validation of their beliefs that they get on Facebook. Another subset distrusts "anonymous polls" and will quickly click the right answers to make HR go away. That might add up to 66%.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#799

Post by throwaway316943 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

kwdc wrote: post #219

Most political discussions fall apart due to people's inability to tolerate dissenting views. The inability to tolerate disagreement in a civil manner is likely just one cause. The amygdala hijack kicks in and suddenly people are frothing at the mouth shouting and are then soon reaching for their metaphorical pitchforks. Online its all about silencing that dissention. Shut up! You can't disagree! Steps are soon taken…

How’d you go from people not wanting open conflict and harassment to being anti-diversity? That’s a big leap. There is a place for civil discussion but if you get kicked out because you start screaming at people and flipping tables it’s not because you’re being oppressed, it’s because you’re being an asshole that no one wants to be around.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#800

Post by wpietri » Sat, May 22, 2021, 12:48 PM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #461

wpietri wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. I disagree. The notion that humans turn into employer-owned production machinery for 8 hours a day is one very particular way to conceptualize work. But it ignores both the individual as a whole person and the society that contains and enables the workplace to function. To me, even as a former and perhaps future entrepr…

I agree with your sentiment that we are more than replacable robots. But I think for a long time 'a whole person' referred to your character, your hobbies, your family, your quirks. And politics was a small, and usually private part of that. We are in a time now where politics is tribal and has usurped a huge part of people's identities. To the point they see the other tribe as the devil merely by association. And I…

I think the notion that "politics was a small, and usually private part of that" is not and has never been true.

Assuming you're talking about America, where that view is common, I think it's referring to a particular post-WWII status quo that generally held among white professionals. But that didn't mean politics was absent; it just meant that enough people agreed on the status quo and felt disagreements could be resolved through governmental processes that partisan politics could be left at the workplace's door. But many elements of that consensus were deeply political. For example that consensus from the 40s to the 60s was to oppress non-white and non-male people in the workplace.

Indeed, the notion that "the bottom line" is the main thing that matters is very political. For example, it leaves out the split of that money. It leaves out how you treat the workers. It leaves out whether increasing the bottom line has negative societal effects. Using the power of employers to force people not to talk about this is an extremely political action.

As you say, things have changed. In the US, the political process has become deeply dysfunctional because of asymmetrical polarization. A majority of one party believes things that are false and is expelling any of its leaders say otherwise. That same party is aiming to win through stopping people from voting and through other structural impediments to democracy. If people are disenfranchised at the ballot box, it's no wonder they're turning to what levers of power they do have.

So if people really want a quiet workplace, then banning politics is exactly the wrong way to do it. Instead, they're going to have to step up and pressure to fix the political system, and then use that system to address the legitimate concerns of their fellow citizens.