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Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

economist.com

581–590 of 1001 posts

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#581
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. No. A million times no. If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee. Nobody, absolutely nobody, is under any obligation to preemptively address things someone imagines might happen based on their misi…

> If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee.

I don't believe this at all, and more importantly, the way you've phrased your second paragraph, I don't think you really believe it all, either.

That is, your first paragraph appears to be arguing that it's only OK to fire an employee for "hostile work environment" if that employee does something hostile at work, and never OK to fire based on stuff an employee has written before being hired.

But your second paragraph actually shows you think the offense really wasn't that bad, that you think it was a "misinterpretation" taken "out of context".

But what if the employee had been in the KKK, and had argued for white supremacy, and that other races were lazy and poor workers? Would you still think an employer would be out of bounds for firing that employee?

My point is that I think it's perfectly fine to fire someone for egregious behavior or writings before they were hired. It's certainly worth debating whether Chaos Monkey rises to the level of egregious - I haven't read the book so I don't have an opinion. But I think some kind of blanket statement that "what you've written before being hired shouldn't matter" is pretty ludicrous.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#582

> Coinbase and Basecamp, which each lost 60 employees after their bosses changed the rules, have apparently been inundated with applications from people wanting to work for politics-free firms. Basecamp lost 20 employees. 60 would be nearly their entire workforce. Coinbase did indeed lose 60 people out of around 1200 at the time.[0] [0] https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/story/2020-10-08...

I wonder if there is such a thing as a "politics free" job listing site?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#583
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. No. A million times no. If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee. Nobody, absolutely nobody, is under any obligation to preemptively address things someone imagines might happen based on their misi…

With how much we know about implicit bias causing so many problems in equity for things like promotions and opportunity in the workplace, having someone publicly espouse explicit bias should come with some consequences. The glass ceiling exists.

You’re saying it shouldn’t be based on an out of context fragment, and I agree but often in those situations in context can mean the same thing. Case by case for sure but if you’re saying white supremacist/chauvinistic talking points online and you’re in any position of responsibility, people who are not white or male are justified in not feeling like they’ll get a fair shake.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-Felons have paid their debt to society, or at least get should be considered as such. And still, it's harder for them to get jobs.

They absolutely have not “paid their debt to society” unless they can undo the felony. You can’t pay back the debt of raping someone or stabbing them or killing them. Even if they let you out of jail.

By that logic, anyone who is proven then to be involved willingly or not in the false accusation and wrongful imprisonment of anyone should be punished by the harshest means physically possible. Absolutely no mercy.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ex-Felons have paid their debt to society, or at least get should be considered as such. And still, it's harder for them to get jobs.

They absolutely have not “paid their debt to society” unless they can undo the felony. You can’t pay back the debt of raping someone or stabbing them or killing them. Even if they let you out of jail.

No forgiveness for Martha Stewart!

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#586
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. No. A million times no. If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee. Nobody, absolutely nobody, is under any obligation to preemptively address things someone imagines might happen based on their misi…

> If and when an employee creates a hostile work environment, then the employer may address it by disciplining or firing that employee. I don't believe this at all, and more importantly, the way you've phrased your second paragraph, I don't think you really believe it all, either. That is, your first paragraph appears to be arguing that it's only OK to fire an employee for "hostile work environment" if that employee…

> That is, your first paragraph appears to be arguing that it's only OK to fire an employee for "hostile work environment" if that employee does something hostile at work, and never OK to fire based on stuff an employee has written before being hired.

What do you think a hostile work environment is? How do writings outside of work affect the work environment? The work environment is...things that happen at work. In order for the employee to have created a hostile work environment they would have to, you know, act hostilely at work. That is literally what it means.

An employee proselytizing their religion at work might create a hostile work environment. If they go door-to-door and proselytize on the weekends, and never mention their religion at work, that does not create a hostile work environment and they shouldn't be fired for what they do in their own time. I don't see how that is hard to understand.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#587

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

Humans being humans can’t compartmentalze and seamlessly switch back and forth between work mode and non-work mode. Besides, they spend the best 8-9 hrs of their creative period of the day at work so the happenings of outside world will be subconsciously analyzed at work. If a black kid has been killed by a cop the previous night the injustice of it all will linger on for a few days whether at work or outside of it.

Compartmentalization is a valuable skill.

There are always external factors that can temporarily decrease work performance, like the death of a loved one. Those random dips are evened out over the workforce.

When large swaths of a business's employees can't even at work whenever there's tragic news, that becomes a problem for the business itself.

My point is even perceived discrimination imposes real economic cost.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#588
post #510
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what candidates say in interviews because that's what they think they're supposed to say. How many are telling the truth?

I also see it very often in internal survey open answers as the answer for why you enjoy working here. These are anonymous, there is no incentive to lie.

Unless you're certain it's anonymous, there's incentive to not be fully open.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#589

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

You joke about struggle sessions but that seems to be the direction we’re headed in, just using different words.

I’ve been in HR sessions where “self-criticism” is a core part of the training. All we need to do now is start throwing around terms like “counter-revolutionary ideas”. We’ve already started to label ideas as “dangerous” because they “foment discord”.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-criticism_(Marxism–Leni...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> claiming sexist views This is a pretty vague statement especially as OP mentioned fiction. Not some book espousing his political views. You can pick most of the great authors and find a character or scene that was obscene, but it would be unfair to cherry pick 2-3 sentences, post them on twitter and pretend this represented them.

> This is a pretty vague statement especially as OP mentioned fiction. Not some book espousing his political views. The book in question is a memoir by Antonio Garcia Martinez from what I’ve read. While there’s an argument to be made that even memoir and non-fiction are in a way fiction, this wasn’t an outright work of fiction. It contained misogynistic statements you’d expect to be true to how the author thinks beca…

> there’s an argument to be made that even memoir and non-fiction are in a way fiction

What argument is that? I don't see how you can even say that with a straight face.

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