Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#511

Post by lanstin » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:22 AM UTC

jonas21 wrote: post #339

tshaddox wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. What? I can’t be the only one who works directly in order to fulfill my needs (like literally my most basic needs, think food and shelter).

That seems like a pretty uncharitable interpretation of the comment. I think what they're saying is that you should view an employment relationship as an exchange, where you get money (which can be used to fulfill your basic needs), and your employer gets your labor for a certain number of hours per week. As you are voluntarily exchanging your labor for money, it's reasonable that the focus of the workplace should be…

I disagree. They are paying you because of your judgment and character to do what they want in the best possible way. When employees just go along to get along, that is when company sized disasters happen. You have an obligation to speak up for what you perceive as good and oppose what you see is evil. That is a part of being a professional, it is taking responsibility for the big picture. Why do customers want this, how can we build a sustainable business delighting them and avoid the temptations to take shortcuts that are seductive but short sighted.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#512

Post by Areading314 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

langitbiru wrote: post #508

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

I think in the future, people will start to embrace pseudonymous accounts. People will not share any opinions with their real identities. But they'll do it with their pseudonymous accounts. This can go further than sharing opinions. People's livelihood will be based on their pseudonymous accounts. It happens already in cryptocurrencies projects. Some accounts who work in these projects are pseudonymous accounts. They…

This is also what people do in autocratic regimes. Effectively we have created a "democratic autocracy" by means of allowing mobs of people to steamroll people online and destroy their reputations.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#513

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

hn_user82179 wrote: post #509

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. We've had this discussion already, but claiming sexist views is going to be a problem for you whether you do it at work or elsewhere because of how laws around hostile work environments and notice work. Particularly, if you go on to actually create a hostile work environment (as one might reasonably suppose you will, having publicly espoused the relevant…

> You'd need to convince workers to not believe that someone who says sexist stuff in a book is going to cause a problem for them. This resonated with me. Anecdotally, I sometimes wonder if small, unpleasant interactions (e.g. getting talked over multiple times in a meeting) have anything to do with my gender (I'm the only woman on my team) or are accidental/benign. I usually assume they're benign because I like my c…

That makes sense to me. If I was hired to work for someone and they were posting stuff on Twitter like, " people are all pieces of crap," or any other negative generalization, I too would probably sense animus in stuff that I normally let slide at work. I believe that this understanding is at least in large part the source of the protests that led to him being shown the door.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#514

Post by ARandomerDude » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:23 AM UTC

vl wrote: post #505

ThinkBeat wrote: post #371

One part of the article: This is about a guy who wrote a book on his own time, published it outside of work. Someone did not like some parts of the book and the guy had to quit his job? There is nothing to suggest the man acted improperly at work. I write fictional stories in my spare time (never at work), I enjoy doing it. Some people enjoy reading them (I can't figure out why) It is a sad day for a Democracy when I…

This is nothing new, in fact SV companies have a history of firing people for political beliefs.

They fire users too.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#515

Post by jmull » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:24 AM UTC

rogers18445 wrote: post #441

jmull wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get it. What's the insight here?

How often does a single vote decide an election? Never? Therefore your optimal move is not to waste your time voting - you gain nothing. If everyone thought that way it would be bad perhaps? But they don't so it doesn't matter to you. It might be argued discussing politics contributes to some emergent consensus forming that benefits society, but that consensus will form whether you participate or not and in exactly t…

Thanks for the explanation.

But I don’t think that’s a useful way to model political participation. It’s a social activity. Many participants don’t see the time spent on it as a cost. Also, it is possible to multiply your political force by working with others.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#516

Post by throwkeep » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:25 AM UTC

hluska wrote: post #52

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

I can’t help but wonder if the tech industry did this to itself. Tech companies offer so many amenities at the office from free food, to laundry, to massages that the line between office and home has blurred. Maybe the solution is making offices feel like offices and normalizing forty hour work weeks?

It started with bulldozer parenting, which lead to a generation being unequipped to deal with the real world. They are effectively still toddlers, stuck in arrested development. They demand to be protected from everything, including words and ideas. If they don't get what they want, they throw a tantrum. Colleges turned into their pushover parents, and then tech companies, and now almost every institution.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-cod...

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#517

Post by chrisoverzero » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #451

0xy wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, including the US. If an employee was a member of a fascist party it'd quite literally be illegal to fire them on that basis.

No, political beliefs are a protected class in practically every first world country, but excluding the US; in most states (excluding, IIRC, California - which matters a lot here) it would be legal for a private employer to fire an employee for being a member of the Democrat or Republican party. The key employee anti-discrimination law is the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which prohibits employers from di…

> […] a member of the Democrat or Republican party.

It’s the Democratic party.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#518

Post by madengr » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:27 AM UTC

duped wrote: post #289

ixacto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

I mean if we're talking personally, the end of my rope is insurrection. I would not tolerate sympathies towards the events of January 6th. If my manager or other senior staff began expressing them I would have to voice my thoughts on the subject and begin sending resumes. The idea that both sides are equal is just fallacious. One side is advocating to be more aware of systematic racism and the other tried to incite r…

You mean that mass fraud they called an election?

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#519

Post by dehrmann » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:28 AM UTC

volkl48 wrote: post #192

weasel_words wrote: post #37

I'm just trying to wrap my head around how skewed a poll taken by "a diversity consultancy" would conclude that: "... two-thirds of adults in America want to be able to discuss racial-justice issues at work."

I imagine it depends on how the question is framed. No one wants to be fired for merely mentioning the top news story of the day in office conversation. And sometimes it's a "racial justice" topic. On the other hand, I also don't think most people want to be forced to detail their exact racial-justice views in the office or feel pressured to openly support something.

One of my favorite examples of "how the question was framed" is from ~5 years ago. They asked one group if they were in favor of Obamacare, the other if they were in favor of the Affordable Care Act. Turns out the ACA polls better.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#520

Post by tjpnz » Sat, May 22, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

Areading314 wrote: post #512

langitbiru wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the future, people will start to embrace pseudonymous accounts. People will not share any opinions with their real identities. But they'll do it with their pseudonymous accounts. This can go further than sharing opinions. People's livelihood will be based on their pseudonymous accounts. It happens already in cryptocurrencies projects. Some accounts who work in these projects are pseudonymous accounts. They…

This is also what people do in autocratic regimes. Effectively we have created a "democratic autocracy" by means of allowing mobs of people to steamroll people online and destroy their reputations.

There's aspects of an oligarch here too. Relatively few have the money to successfully sue for genuine damage to reputation should false accusations also be made.