Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#291

Post by ipaddr » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

triceratops wrote: post #220

eric4smith wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. Most businesses are started with neither. But with the sweat off the back of the founders. When will we acknowledge that one of the most noble pursuits in human history is to provide paid employment for your fellow man??

When will we stop fetishizing and lionizing "job creation"? The ideal business would employ zero people, have zero expenses, and make a 100% profit margin. From a purely business perspective, every job created is an inefficiency. No one sets out to create jobs when they start a business. They set out to make money and create products or services of value - in that order. Employing people is an unfortunate side-effect…

Not true at all. Some employees can create profit if you could hire more of these employees you jump. Sales people are easy to measure, if you could hire 100 or 1000 people who make double what they cost you do.

If you want some other area of your company strong you invest in that area. An lawyer during a period where the public is sueing you pays for itself.

Hiring a developer to fix a login issue saves refunds.

A lot of jobs seems less important but they provide support and are net positives. Having a server guy means you have a working server. Having a marketing guy means new leads are coming in. Having more sales people means converting more of those leads.

The ineffiency comes when you have too many people in one department waiting on an understaffed area in some other part of the business.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#292

Post by filleduchaos » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

iandanforth wrote: post #224

I see a lot of anti-politics-at-work commentary here. This makes me wonder what the posters would do working for companies that have an explicit social agenda. If the politics are baked into the company, does that void the "politics and work should be separate" point?

Politics has become a dirty word in the US, so people simply don't think of their pet political causes as politics.

In my opinion, many Americans especially do not know how to talk politics (in large part because of how much of a dirty word it has become, and also for a bunch of historical reasons) and instead of addressing this - which, to be fair, is extremely difficult to do - people would simply rather sweep it all under the rug.

It's even more complicated when it comes to the workplace because if you don't know how to talk politics you definitely won't know how to compartmentalise political debate and professional duty. To have politics in the workplace you need to be able to passionately, even furiously disagree with someone in one moment and pleasantly collaborate or offer assistance in the next. Either that or maintain a business where everyone has the same political leanings. There aren't really any in-betweens.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#293

Post by eschaton » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

GeneralMayhem wrote: post #157

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that pyramid not classic slippery slope fallacy? You could make a pyramid where you have violent movies and playing violent video games leads to a person becoming a serial killer arguing that violent movies and video games desensitize you to murder.

It's only a slippery slope fallacy if the progression is hypothetical and unjustified - otherwise, it's an actual slippery slope. The progression from normalization of racial animosity to genocide - on a societal level, not the strawman that any individual will make an off-color joke today and build the gas chambers tomorrow - is something that has demonstrably happened multiple times in the past couple of centuries,…

Indeed, it’s worth discussing because it was used as a blueprint by some of the despots of the twentieth century; it’s not just something that was figured out after the fact.

These despots were even very open about their plans and methodologies. Hitler specifically cited as inspirations the United States’ systematic oppression and genocide of indigenous peoples, and the Ottomans’ oppression and genocide of Armenians.

This stuff has never happened in a vacuum. Anyone who insists on always arguing from first principles is—most charitably—being a useful idiot for those who know exactly what they’re trying to do.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#294

Post by zdragnar » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #153

ixacto wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Advocating for what things exactly? It might be a strawman, but I’m going to guess and it would be something like an end to perceived workplace raceism/sexism/*isms. If you let in political advocacy movements from the left do you really want political movements from the right? Or is it just ok if the left is advocating for it? I kinda think the left is trying to have their equity cake and eat it too… To some people (…

I've had a coworker complain about my casual use of blasphemy and management agreed that I should tone it down. It's not necessarily left vs right; it's aiming to reduce toxic behaviors that make a workplace unsafe for others. Not every "political opinion" belongs in the workplace, but I've heard about everything on your list but furries in the workplace and gone on to have productive working relationships with those…

I've had coworkers with whom I have had cordial disagreements regarding politics and this isnt the issue.

When the head of your division uses the time before meetings to talk politics, it is toxic- the power dynamic isn't even. Coworkers can do the same when they publicly hold discussions and expect everyone to agree- the dynamic is off, and toxic. You simply can't have a civil, earnest conversation in a group chat or email setting, because it is too easy for the group to run away with a misunderstanding.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#295

Post by BobbyJo » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

steverb wrote: post #73

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was about to say, this is the most chilling HN sentence I’ve ever read. The totality of our existence from 8-5 is not owed to someone who profits from our labor and skills because they got lucky with some seed money or an inheritance a decade ago. That’s just the divine right of kings with extra steps.

Your labor and skills are not owed because they got lucky, they are owed because that is what you are exchanging with the owner for money. They may tolerate (and even enjoy) your personal quirks and causes, but they are paying you to get things done that they don't have the time or skill to do themselves. [Edit: Accidentally left ou a letter]

Exactly. The fundamental basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange. Either party can set their own conditions, and are free to decline the conditions of the other. Everything not part of that exchange is, well, not part of that exchange.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

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Post by duped » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:03 AM UTC

acituan wrote: post #167

duped wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The office exists within society. Some things exist everywhere you go in society. You don't give up ethics and morals because you cross the threshold of your place of business. Ignoring social problems in the workplace because it is a workplace is how we avoid solving those problems as a society. The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect…

> The office is exactly where we should be advocating for things, because it is where we spend the most time and can affect the most change. Just like we can't say "I should vote on other people's behalf because I know better", we also can't say "I should have more access to societal change because I am employed in an affluent organization". Otherwise it would be elitism 101. Office as a means of societal change does…

That's not what I intended to say, I meant that within your office or team your voice is simply heard. Thats true regardless of how "affluent" an organization may be.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

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Post by smegger001 » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:04 AM UTC

krapp wrote: post #274

dimgl wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is angry. That's the point. The point is that no one should care about race, but everyone all of the sudden is.

But we're talking about expanding the color palette on a set of icons. If no one is angry about it, why do people keep complaining about it? >The point is that no one should care about race, but everyone all of the sudden is. This doesn't read like the opinion of someone who isn't angry about something.

Not angry, exhausted. Tired of everything becoming new theater in the culture war. Tired of things that were intrinsically neutral and apolitical before are being changed for no reason other than to make it another battleground.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#298

Post by Apocryphon » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:04 AM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #270

Apocryphon wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is happening because these large tech companies- not just tier-1 unicorns but FAANGs themselves, have been presenting themselves as paternalistic employers for the past decade. You provide employees with all the free food, on-campus gyms, and massages by appointment as they want, then present them with supposedly open cultures of free inquiry, your employees are going to use it. You satiate someone's lower level…

This is probably the best explanation I’ve seen.

You can't claim that your mission is to make the world a better place and then act surprised when your employees take you at your word.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#299

Post by move-on-by » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:04 AM UTC

I disagree with the entire premise of this article, and the statements it makes to prove it’s points are flimsy.

The first three sentences:

> When at work, steer clear of politics. This rule, generally accepted around the world, does not apply in techland. Employees bring their “whole self to work”, including their political beliefs.

As a software manager who has worked at a handful of companies I never once found this statement to be true. I’ve been around people who formed friendships at work and became comfortable enough to discuss political events among themselves on breaks - but never once met someone who thought that it was an acceptable topic for general discussion at the office.

> Internal online forums are full of heated debates

Ok yes, this is a problem and it might be more problematic for tech companies who might be more willing to have internal forms. I believe society as a whole has failed to follow our own interaction guidelines when online. It’s too easy to cross the line without the immediate vocal or visual cues you get in person or on the phone.

> Digital technology has always had a political bent

I disagree and the argument that apple is ‘counterculture’ is their marketing agenda and has nothing to do with the technology.

> Technological shifts have tended to be framed in political terms

I disagree with this too. Open source is simply what it is. Beyond that one argument, it’s such a broad statement it’s insane. Yes, politics likes to frame change in favorable terms- that has nothing to do with the technology shifts themselves.

> tech firms have felt obliged to offer plenty of perks, such as free food, but also “work that aligns with personal values”

How does wanting to have a positive impact on the world have anything to do with the tech field? Only thing I can think of is that there is a lot of really shady tech out their now- anything from tracking people to AI for drones. I don’t want to work for them. I also don’t want to work for a payday loan company- nothing to do with one being a tech company.

> One reason is that more than in other sectors, discussions in tech firms mostly take place over Slack and other corporate communication services

Back to my first concession- this is the root cause of the problem, and with so many offices closed now isn’t really a ‘tech’ problem anymore. Society as a whole needs to learn to to behave in a asynchronous environment.

Re: Woke at Work: Why tech firms are trying to run away from politics and failing

#300

Post by ajkjk » Sat, May 22, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

eric4smith wrote: post #7

People are human. But work is work. The canonical point of a workplace is to come together to fulfill the aims of the entrepreneurs. The personal aims of the workers are fulfilled best outside of work. Just stop to think about it logically for a minute... is the workplace the best place to circulate a petition condemning something that has nothing to do with work? The workplace necessarily is going to bring together…

I think that's totally absurd. You're a human wherever you go, you should not be required to put aside what's important to you for most of every day, keeping your head down and paying tribute to capitalism. Work is, and should be, real life.