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Leaving Freenode for a new network

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Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#301

Post by dspillett »

yakubin wrote: post #272
dspillett wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So since ~2012. I've not used IRC since before then so maybe things have been relatively calm in those nine years, but IRC has been around since 1988 and has a long history of drama arguably starting with the first big split in 1990. While not caring to know the details of past drama is fine, to be _completely_ unaware of it seems both rather myopic and somewhat naive IMO. Have you never taken any interest in the his…

I didn't write that IRC was devoid of drama. I wrote it's the first one I'm hearing about. As in, know what it's about. Vaguely knowing that there probably was some drama in the past is another thing entirely. There is a lot more drama in more mainstream parts of the Internet, which is where my surprise at the mention of it comes from. I also think you're taking it too seriously. Internet drama is a relatively unimpo…

Fair enough, but your "first I've heard of..." comment implied (to my mind) that you considered yourself aware enough of IRCs history that you not having heard of previous matters is significant.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#302

Post by supermatt »

juliend2 wrote: post #162
supermatt wrote: post #13

A gem from one of the linked chatlogs (Ariadne is security chair for Alpine linux and a prolific FOSS contributer): [23:07:35] i mean, i have important work to do. dealing with an IRC network is not really something i want to be doing this decade outside of fucking around for fun with IRCX [23:07:51] i have code running on two planets

> i have code running on two planets Pretty cool. I wonder which one of her libraries (if that's what she's referring to) is being used on a Mars rover.

libucontext

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#303

Post by forgotmypw17 »

terrabitlock wrote: post #296
orblivion wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many would move to Matrix?

The matrix is evil. Matrix is not currently usable for full federated use https://wiki.404.city/en/XMPP_vs_Matrix The matrix protocol is not scalable, so it becomes hell for large non-profit servers and in the future the Matrix network may split into several incompatible protocols

Also non-human-readable data formats...

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#304

Post by pbhjpbhj »

chriswarbo wrote: post #284
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Some are pretty clean, e.g. direct democracy is more democratic than representative democracy // Unless the people want representational democracy but are forced into direct democracy. Or, in theory (and I can't stress that enough that this is theoretical), representational democracy could better represent people than they can represent for themselves .. I can fix my own windows, but the glazier will probably do a b…

> Unless the people want representational democracy but are forced into direct democracy. That's a category error; you're comparing a decision-making process to a decision. A totalitarian dictatorship is not more democratic than a body of elected representatives, even if the people voted to implement that dictatorship. It's like the XKCD comic which claims the number 4 is random, because it came up in a die roll. > O…

I don't think I made a category error, the process is not democratic and the continued decision making by the demos would be contrary to their desire (to have a less direct democracy) so would remain undemocratic. Votes within the system would be democratic inasmuch as they were 'by the people' but they wouldn't have supreme power -- as they couldn't choose to change the system -- and so it would fall short of being democratic. It was, and remains, a cutesy and non-productive comment.

>A totalitarian dictatorship is not more democratic than a body of elected representatives, even if the people voted to implement that dictatorship. //

To press the useless point: yes, a dictatorship is less democratic as the people no longer have the power vested in them (and would have to reclaim it by a coup, or similar).

On your second point, you're right. My go to for reflecting on democracy is 'government by the people and _for_ the people' and that has coloured my response. I do think there's an element of necessary agency, which suggests a qualitative aspect, however.

But strictly, I concede, government to the utmost detriment of the demos could be democratic in the primary sense of the word.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#305

Post by dang »

jasonzemos wrote: post #294
dang wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting example because I don't think we'd edit the title that way now. We try to replace corporate-press-release tropes with more direct language; but of course only if we can be sure that it's true. If people in the thread were complaining about the word "purchased", that explains why we'd have changed your title. But I cringe a little to see that we put press release language like "joining forces" ba…

Dan, if you're actually one person and not some algorithm, I have to commend the visibly valiant effort you've put into this place. You got this one wrong though. It was a different atmosphere back then; far more "grifty" a time perhaps. I need not make appeals to some Hegelian universal history for us all to see now the owl of Minerva has flown. You were duped and spread disinformation -- that's okay -- apologetics…

I'm always happy to apologize when someone points out a mistake, but I don't see the mistake yet in this case.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#306

Post by AshamedCaptain »

vlmutolo wrote: post #288
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This one is way off. Synapse, the "one complete server" you must be referring to, is going to be deprecated. The Matrix Foundation team is working on Dendrite to replace it. I hugely disagree. I have tried to setup a "homeserver". Synapse is huge beast, complex, CPU and memory-hungry, hard to setup (no, a Docker or VM instance does not mean easy to setup). Dendrite is not ready and has been "not ready" for years, n…

I don't think anything you wrote contradicts what I said in the parent comment. In the section you quoted, I only meant to say that other homeserver projects are definitely not dead. There are a bunch that are actively developed and improving. It's also true that the new homeservers aren't yet ready for prime time. But they're coming along really fast. It's true that homeservers by third parties had a bit of a rough…

> It's also true that the new homeservers aren't yet ready for prime time. But they're coming along really fast.

I have seen way too many being abandoned to believe that. In fact last time I researched I put Conduit in the abandoned list, though apparently I was wrong. Matrix is just a too complex protocol, and way too focused on one and only one server implementation. Which is ironic considering probably every other competitor protocol (save for perhaps IRC itself) is even more complex, but at least they were not that complex when they initially showed up -- so other people could actually start implementations that survived and growed along.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#307

Post by fapjacks »

jasonzemos wrote: post #294
dang wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting example because I don't think we'd edit the title that way now. We try to replace corporate-press-release tropes with more direct language; but of course only if we can be sure that it's true. If people in the thread were complaining about the word "purchased", that explains why we'd have changed your title. But I cringe a little to see that we put press release language like "joining forces" ba…

Dan, if you're actually one person and not some algorithm, I have to commend the visibly valiant effort you've put into this place. You got this one wrong though. It was a different atmosphere back then; far more "grifty" a time perhaps. I need not make appeals to some Hegelian universal history for us all to see now the owl of Minerva has flown. You were duped and spread disinformation -- that's okay -- apologetics…

What the fuck did I just read.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#308

Post by vlmutolo »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #306
vlmutolo wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anything you wrote contradicts what I said in the parent comment. In the section you quoted, I only meant to say that other homeserver projects are definitely not dead. There are a bunch that are actively developed and improving. It's also true that the new homeservers aren't yet ready for prime time. But they're coming along really fast. It's true that homeservers by third parties had a bit of a rough…

> It's also true that the new homeservers aren't yet ready for prime time. But they're coming along really fast. I have seen way too many being abandoned to believe that. In fact last time I researched I put Conduit in the abandoned list, though apparently I was wrong. Matrix is just a too complex protocol, and way too focused on one and only one server implementation. Which is ironic considering probably every other…

I asked the primary author from conduit, as a third party implementating a server, if he thought the protocol was too complex. He said no, which actually surprised me.

I'm somewhat of an layperson on this topic in that I haven't actually ever tried to work with the protocol on a low level. But my take on it is that if they can slow down the pace of Matrix evolution in the next couple years, the protocol will be in a good state. It's complex, but it's providing extremely complex features.

But if they keep going at this pace for too long, third party implementations may become less feasible.

Re: Leaving Freenode for a new network

#309

Post by vlmutolo »

terrabitlock wrote: post #297
vlmutolo wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you don't check, other people should know that this is extremely misleading. > Fewer clients, way more complex protocol This is actually a valid complaint, though it's partly due to Matrix being pretty young. The other part is that Matrix does a lot more for you than IRC (eg e2ee and federation) and those extra features require complexity. > The identity server is centralized This is a completely optional par…

>Everything is open source, so anyone is free to fork at any time. Matrix 1 Matrix 2 Matrix 3 Matrix 4 Matrix 5 Matrix 6 Matrix 7 Matrix 8 Matrix 9 Matrix 10 Matrix .... Matrix 999 Which clone of the matrix do you mean to use and how many messengers to install? XMPP has similar Matrix capabilities and modular architecture. XMPP protocol surpasses the Matrix, it is clearly seen on the client for Android Conversations…

Matrix is a federated protocol, so you could easily use your forked client or forked server with the existing servers and clients out there. Basically like you're free to fork any of the open source email servers or clients and operate your own version.
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