Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho' • Hacker News Board

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#231

Post by jfrunyon » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #118

GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

> Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? > > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. They do realize that Idaho and Oregon have different climates and different prec…

> Who gets to decide what an "American *" is?

Their intended audience.

Keep in mind, this is written to appeal to someone who is already likely to agree that Oregon is handling these topics poorly.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#232

Post by DeRock » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #211

DeRock wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their biggest customer may end up being the US government (eg. for work fleets). So maybe it was a strategic move? Time will tell.

Next time you're at a national park, national forest, BLM land, or some other federal facility of that sort, check out the brand and types of trucks they have.

I honestly don't know, can you tell me? One thing to consider is that Biden has been very public about transitioning US government fleets to all electric (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/25/biden-plans-to-replace-gover...), so even if other brands are currently used, it doesn't matter, because they don't sell an electric pickup.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#233

Post by asdff » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

ilamont wrote: post #172

akvadrako wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Upper Valley in western NH (where I'm from) also kind of seceded to Vermont for a short while: https://www.flowofhistory.org/the-rebellion-in-western-new-h...

Another weird border situation played out in the "Oblong" where a botched Colonial land survey created a kind of no-man's land between New York State, Connecticut, and the southwest corner of Massachusetts. How it got resolved related to an utterly bizarre incident in the 1850s. https://anchor.fm/lostmass/episodes/The-Lost-Corner-AKA-Hell...

Michigan and Ohio once went to war over Toledo.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#234

Post by rsj_hn » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

teclordphrack2 wrote: post #199

BobbyJo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

Except a lot on the left is driven by data.

Banning plastic straws, asserting that men should compete against women in sports if they identify as women, and eliminating SAT scores doesn't seem like a science-driven approach, but more of a faith-based science-denialism.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#235

Post by tacitusarc » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

ABeeSea wrote: post #207

BobbyJo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

Republican Reagan signed EMTALA which makes it so hospitals can’t refuse service in emergencies due to ability to pay. It stopped people from dying in the street. They did not fund this new mandate and so we currently pay for this through higher insurance premiums and county/municipal emergency service budgets. Universal healthcare would be a more efficient way to pay for an already existing benefit. When uninsured c…

I live in a predominantly right-leaning area and know a lot of people who are against universal healthcare. I've talked with a lot of them about it, and every single person would be in favor of it if there was a magical guarantee the money would actually be spent properly and not corruptly misallocated. But the track record is so poor, and there is such little transparency, that they have no trust whatsoever. I can hardly fault them. And the left's argument of "give us more money, we promise to get it right this time" is hardly compelling. Obviously, accusing people on the right of being ok with others dying in the street doesn't help matters.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#236

Post by resntoirnetien » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

kirillzubovsky wrote: post #188

AlotOfReading wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you've lived in a lot of these places, but most of them are utterly dependent on those population centers to meet their basic medical, financial, and infrastructure needs. The cores in turn need resources from the peripheries to sustain themselves. There's no reason any of this has to be oppositional, except that the rural counties are pissed off about elections and lockdowns right now.

I don't quite agree with this view based on what I've seen/heard from small town folks. The narrative that rural counties depend on the centers for their infrastructure needs is a view that was created by the cities. In practice, people is small towns and rural counties are extremely self-sufficient. They know help isn't coming their way, and therefore are totally okay doing what needs to be done to preserve their co…

> In practice, people is small towns and rural counties are extremely self-sufficient.

The narrative that rural counties are extremely self-sufficient is utter-nonsense, cult-like thinking. They don't have the population, tax-base, or non-individualistic thinking to do anything at all. They're dead in the water without outside funding, which comes from the state/county where people actually live/work.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#237

Post by dumbfoundded » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

smaryjerry wrote: post #120

dumbfoundded wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current racism in Oregon is certainly not something I want to understate but it's unfair to compare Oregon now to the deep South now. The whole of the United States was founded on slavery but a lot has changed. Not nearly as much as has changed in the South. For example, President Obama lost the national white vote 43% to 55% in 2008 (1). In 2008, more than 89% of the voters in Oregon were white and voted for Oba…

This assumes all votes were based on race and that voting for a white person makes you racist and voting for a black person makes you not racist. There is just so much wrong with that.

Your response is disgustingly incorrect. President Obama's election as the first black president certainly included significant racial elements. When comparing it to Clinton vs Dole in 1996, Clinton lost the white vote 42% to 44% (1). Obama lost the white vote 43% to 55% (2). Both Clinton and Obama won by 8% differences.

Yes, not voting for the black candidate over the white candidate doesn't make you racist. But to ignore race altogether as a factor is just as ignorant and even more damaging. The 2008 president election was one of the most racially divisive elections in US history (3).

(1) https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-1996

(2) https://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-2008

(3) http://www.columbia.edu/~tko2103/GVF20110722.pdf

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#238

Post by joshka » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

troutwine wrote: post #166

joshka wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), wh…

> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? There's a very present "last bastion" framing in most of the right-wing media I track. It'll depend on exactly what the foundational beliefs of the community are that drive this framing -- John Birch society derivative folks arrive here via a different path than white su…

Thanks - as a non-American living there, this is pretty helpful to further my understanding.

I wonder whether there's any actual examples of the values being brought back from a point where they have disappeared.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#239

Post by _qwfv » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

jfrunyon wrote: post #231

Pfhreak wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? > > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. They do realize that Idaho and Oregon have different climates and different prec…

> Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? Their intended audience. Keep in mind, this is written to appeal to someone who is already likely to agree that Oregon is handling these topics poorly.

I think I'm mostly just expressing frustration that this actually works. That anyone looks at that phrasing and says, "Yes, this makes sense."

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#240

Post by ghaff » Thu, May 20, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

philistine wrote: post #225

ghaff wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to be careful with the 80/20 US Census split numbers between urban/rural. Between myself and a couple neighbors, we're on 100 acres next to even more conservation land. One neighbor has an apple orchard. Another a Christmas tree farm. The town I'm in is considered urban because we're near a major city and adjacent to another small city.

But you are urban. You are near a major city, and adjacent another small one like you said. Urban versus rural is not a measure of closeness to nature, it's a measure of closeness to other humans.

It depends on your definitions. A lot of people would object to defining urban as encompassing having to drive anywhere except to connect to immediate neighbors. I can basically go to my two immediate neighbors. Otherwise I have to get in a car. Is that urban?