Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

upi.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 673 posts

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#201

Post by jdminhbg »

pii wrote: post #108
kingsuper20 wrote: post #97

I do have to wonder if it wouldn't be simpler to just move state functions, as many as are practical, to the county level. Counties are perfectly capable of being 100% in charge of their own schools, roads, police. They largely are, but subject to a great deal of probably unnecessary state control.

I think we might end up with counties mandating the teaching of some pretty abhorrent things if we did that

School systems are already run at a sub-county level, and depending on your politics you can pick which things being taught are abhorrent.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#202

Post by CountDrewku »

hackyhacky wrote: post #140
thepasswordis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

Sounds like someone's been watching a bit too much Fox Propaganda. Farms are already subsidized by the government. Imports are already subject to tariffs precisely to protect farmers. Who do you think pays for those subsidies, and who pays for the tariffs? Yeah, the "coastal elites" that you've been trained to hate. In farmers stopped benefiting from the largess of the coast, _they_ would starve to death, and everyon…

Just FYI if they starve to death there's no one to plant or harvest the food.

Also, if your argument is that the subsidies are unnecessary that would indicate that farming is profitable and they would in fact not starve to death. The point you're trying to make kinda collapsed on itself bud.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#203

Post by BobbyJo »

teclordphrack2 wrote: post #199
BobbyJo wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

Except a lot on the left is driven by data.

Citation? Or is that just a data-free assertion? ;)

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#204

Post by smaryjerry »

DeRock wrote: post #141
smaryjerry wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford’s biggest problem with the F150 was using Biden as its salesperson. Someone at Ford didn’t evaluate their consumer demographics properly.

Their biggest customer may end up being the US government (eg. for work fleets). So maybe it was a strategic move? Time will tell.

This is a good point. seems that the majority of police vehicles have been Ford historically because if the requirement to buy American. Biden also is pushing a $2M infrastructure bill that is at is core described as for addressing climate change. There will be a lot of vehicles for that.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#205

Post by madengr »

joshka wrote: post #126
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), wh…

"What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?"

The US Bill of Rights.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#206

Post by Pfhreak »

omegaworks wrote: post #93

The Greater Idaho project would absorb nearly the entire water resources of the East Cascades, placing them under the control of a single state entity. Doesn't bode well for a Western US that will be increasingly dependent on freshwater as the Earth warms.

The coastal cities would have access to the major international ports. I suspect the states would have to get along or everyone loses.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#207

Post by ABeeSea »

BobbyJo wrote: post #183
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

>My personal believe is presently, for lack of data that I can digest, that the far right is probably focused around emotions Both sides have appeals to emotion and appeals to logic in their platform. For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right, because, in their opinion, the gover…

Republican Reagan signed EMTALA which makes it so hospitals can’t refuse service in emergencies due to ability to pay. It stopped people from dying in the street. They did not fund this new mandate and so we currently pay for this through higher insurance premiums and county/municipal emergency service budgets. Universal healthcare would be a more efficient way to pay for an already existing benefit. When uninsured chronic conditions have reached the point you are literally in the ER / close to death, you suddenly get tons of subsidized healthcare. Subsidized in a grossly inefficient manner. Universal healthcare would lower costs through prevention.

I would have more respect for the right if they just admitted they are ok with people dying in the streets since they just ignore the economic effects of EMTALA.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#208

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

thepasswordis wrote: post #128
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

Is this suggesting we could actually live without Facebook, Google and Twitter.

Many of us did that for many years of our lives. At the time, I never anticipated with the internet and eventually the web is that people who had never experienced life without it could so easily be caused to lose sight of what is possible, in favor of the mess we have today. The biggest impediment I see to positive change is that younger generations are being indoctrinated into a world where "tech" companies, intermediaries supported by advertising, are perceived as an essential part of using the internet. This is of course patently false. But these companies are ultimately surveilling and controlling the dialogue. After all, internet subscribers use these "tech" company intermediaries to communicate.

Before advertising took over the internet, the inter-network's user base was relatively small. Folks who used the internet recreationally during that time were likely to be technically minded people who enjoyed computers, the type of people many of which who are working with advertising supported "tech" companies today. Few of them are going to portray an advertising-free internet as a viable option. Their livelihoods today depend on advertising. Supporting Big Tech is their "work".

Anyway, it is good to see at least one commenter can contemplate a better course for the future.

It is possible to communicate and share over the internet without the use of Big Tech. However, as long as advertising-supprted "tech" companies sit between users, operating as intermediaries, that truth will keep getting buried deeper with every new generation.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#209

Post by JohnWhigham »

dumbfoundded wrote: post #13
UncleOxidant wrote: post #5

As an Oregonian not living in one of those sparsely-populated counties that voted for secession, I wonder why the folks who want to be part of Idaho don't just vote with their feet and move there? There's no border wall keeping them in Oregon. These votes are just symbolic and won't get them to their Idaho paradise near as quickly as a U-Haul could.

The whole point of democracy is to vote to change things you don't like about your government. I don't agree with them but I respect their right to vote on it. I wouldn't respect or legitimize a violent insurrection.

>I wouldn't respect or legitimize a violent insurrection.

You know that's how the US was formed, right?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#210

Post by vkou »

snowwrestler wrote: post #163
ncallaway wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If drugs have been criminalized for decades, and that has led to overdoses being at an all time high, isn’t that just a pretty strong point of evidence that criminalizing drugs isn’t an effective means to prevent overdoses? We tried that strategy for many decades. It has failed as a strategy for decades. I don’t think that’s necessarily evidence that decriminalization will work, but it seems like...maybe we should at…

Governments that have addressed drug use as a health issue, rather than a criminal issue, have shown good results. If this is the direction Oregon is intending to go, it is certainly worth trying. But if it will just be an unstructured free-for-all I doubt it will result in any improvements.

> But if it will just be an unstructured free-for-all I doubt it will result in any improvements.

For a functioning addict, drugs not being illegal is itself an improvement, even if overdose rates stay completely unchanged.

When you have an addiction problem, getting the legal system involved typically results in you getting two problems around your neck, instead of just one.

Post reply on HN