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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#161

Post by pchristensen »

thepasswordis wrote: post #128
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

To take this view you've shared charitably, what would "Those people in the middle of the country" who keep up from starving want in order to be satisfied with ... life? America? whatever bothers them about the current arrangement?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#162

Post by fyijbxmuyidudm »

mjevans wrote: post #127
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

That's more informative than the article was, thank you. Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community". The issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and dis-enfranchisement of displaced people all relate to failed social safety nets and social planning. My understanding is that decades ago, in the early 80s IIRC, a terrible abuse and system for housing the men…

Point 6 goes beyond the voting system. The divide between the moral systems of the people of Portland and the people of rural Oregon, which mirrors the divide of the rest of the country, is a genuine religious schism. The iconoclastic woke and the Christians do not and do not want to share moral beliefs or behavior. There is no resolution to this.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#163

Post by snowwrestler »

ncallaway wrote: post #131
buzzert wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One particular example might be Oregon’s decision to decriminalize all drugs[0] during a time when overdoses are at an all time high[1] and increasing over 40% in just the last year. You might say the political party who calls the war on drugs “cruel and inhumane” is acting on emotion rather than reason in spite of all the statistics. [0]: https://drugpolicy.org/press-release/2021/02/drug-decriminal... [1]: https://w…

If drugs have been criminalized for decades, and that has led to overdoses being at an all time high, isn’t that just a pretty strong point of evidence that criminalizing drugs isn’t an effective means to prevent overdoses? We tried that strategy for many decades. It has failed as a strategy for decades. I don’t think that’s necessarily evidence that decriminalization will work, but it seems like...maybe we should at…

Governments that have addressed drug use as a health issue, rather than a criminal issue, have shown good results.

If this is the direction Oregon is intending to go, it is certainly worth trying. But if it will just be an unstructured free-for-all I doubt it will result in any improvements.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#164

Post by CountDrewku »

wwweston wrote: post #71
avalys wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they like their home, their community, and their neighborhood, but what they don’t like is having a bunch of people living in population centers far away who don’t share their values telling them how to live their lives?

> a bunch of people living in population centers far away "Far away" being "within the same state"? > "telling them how to live their lives" Yes, tell us the horrifying tales of distinctive micromanagement the people of Eastern Oregon have to suffer from. If you live in society featuring representative government and rule of law, no matter where you live you'll run into a situation where you won't be part of the plur…

>Which means this complaint is essentially about the idea that certain minorities get that they should have the right to impose their values on the majority.

I don't think you understand what the word impose means. How is asking to leave imposing something on anyone?

If you want to see an example of minority groups imposing beliefs on the majority you should look at BLM and lgtbq communities.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#165

Post by cratermoon »

mjevans wrote: post #127
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

That's more informative than the article was, thank you. Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community". The issues of homelessness, drug addiction, and dis-enfranchisement of displaced people all relate to failed social safety nets and social planning. My understanding is that decades ago, in the early 80s IIRC, a terrible abuse and system for housing the men…

> Points 1 and 2 should be combined and addressed as "how civil services protect and better the community"

No, point 2 is specifically calling out antifa and BLM, and catering to racist fears, but in coded language.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#166

Post by troutwine »

joshka wrote: post #126
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

>American Values ... normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones? > 3. Low Tax The counties involved have median household incomes of 30-35K, making their tax burden $600-1100 total, a far cry from the average quoted, which is skewed right strongly by outliers (1%), wh…

> What sort of logic supports that American values are those held by a minority of Americans. What possible values suggest they are the normal ones?

There's a very present "last bastion" framing in most of the right-wing media I track. It'll depend on exactly what the foundational beliefs of the community are that drive this framing -- John Birch society derivative folks arrive here via a different path than white supremacist survivalists and them a different path than evangelical fundamentalist Christians -- but it's common enough. It goes hand in hand with the notion that the US has fallen from the ideal set forth by the Founders and that only your in-group really gets it and has a hope of restoring it.

Alex Jones is a good, mainstream-ish example. Dude's a Bircher and has spent decades coaching his audience to believe that Globalists are in league with Satan and intend to destroy humanity, if only they could get the US out of the way. Satan/The Globalists are _this_ close to succeeding. Once they do, Real American Values will disappear from the world, ushering in the post-human era. Jones preaches survivalism (sorta, feeding your neighbors to your daughters will give your daughters prion disease) to his audience and I hope you see how the two strains of thought would fester into a framing like you've called out.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#167

Post by hackyhacky »

Pfhreak wrote: post #118
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

> Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is? > > 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. They do realize that Idaho and Oregon have different climates and different prec…

> Haha, what? If Oregon is doing stuff, it's definitionally an American value and American Freedom, right? Who gets to decide what an "American *" is?

Have you watched Fox News recently? They're very clear: "American" refers to their (conservative, older, rural) viewers; "anti-American" refers to everyone else. People believe this.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#168

Post by thepasswordis »

pchristensen wrote: post #161
thepasswordis wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

To take this view you've shared charitably, what would "Those people in the middle of the country" who keep up from starving want in order to be satisfied with ... life? America? whatever bothers them about the current arrangement?

To be clear: these aren't my views. I live on the Coast, and probably work at the same company some of you guys work at. I just also happen to have close friends who live outside of the bubble we all inhabit.

They think that they want to be left alone. They don't want what they perceive as coastal values forced upon their kids in school.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#169

Post by ModernMech »

schaefer wrote: post #144
GongOfFour wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the website for one of the groups pushing for this: https://www.greateridaho.org/ Taxes are just one part of this. They list these other issues of concern: > 1. American Values: Oregon will continue to violate more and more American values and American freedoms because normal rural Americans are outnumbered in Oregon. Not in Idaho. Addicts will be attracted to Oregon from all over the world by the 2020 drug d…

Can I just say, for me the use of the term "illegals" under the section of Law and Order comes across as a dehumanizing slur. how unfortunate.

I'm struck by how "homeless" is included in a list containing "criminals", "arsonists", and "rioters". The homeless aren't people we need protection from, they're people we need to help.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#170

Post by [deleted] »

thepasswordis wrote: post #128
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

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