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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#151

Post by ncallaway »

buzzert wrote: post #138
ncallaway wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If drugs have been criminalized for decades, and that has led to overdoses being at an all time high, isn’t that just a pretty strong point of evidence that criminalizing drugs isn’t an effective means to prevent overdoses? We tried that strategy for many decades. It has failed as a strategy for decades. I don’t think that’s necessarily evidence that decriminalization will work, but it seems like...maybe we should at…

“Try something else”, as in the complete polar opposite of what we were trying before? I cannot rationalize such a decision.

We tried a strategy. All evidence point to that strategy being a complete failure at accomplishing any of its goals.

Yes, let’s try a different strategy. Yes, that different strategy might be the opposite of the thing we were trying before. That’s because the thing we were trying before has failed in almost every metric for decades (including drug overdose deaths, as you’ve noted).

Honestly, I genuinely don’t know how one could rationalize preserving the existing strategy. Can you explain the desire to continue applying the same failed strategy? What’s the logical argument for continuing to do the same thing?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#153

Post by wvenable »

jpttsn wrote: post #64
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

What if your assumption, that tax dollars go toward a greater good, is shown to be wrong? Let alone the difficulty of tracing it: assume it’s possible to show where every tax dollar went. Would you still favor this trnsparency if it’s shown to sometimes benefit individual politicians at the expense of their would be constituents? Just hypothetically?

> What if your assumption, that tax dollars go toward a greater good, is shown to be wrong?

Wouldn't we call that a success? You can't fix something that isn't measured. If nobody knows anything concrete then all people have to go on is vague feelings.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#154

Post by lotsofpulp »

cronix wrote: post #56
throwkeep wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guessing they like some combination of geography, neighborhood, house, job where they live?

Most are farmers who have been working the same land for generations. They know it inside and out under all sorts of conditions. It's kind of trivial to move a household vs an entire farm system. It can take several years to get it all up and running again, depending on your crop/animals of course. There is no political back and forth like there used to be where you'd have republicans controlling things for a time an…

>If you look at the state senate map, there is a lot more red land mass than blue.

I have yet to come across a land mass that has a political leaning.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#155

Post by mc32 »

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

Note that this movement isn’t recent and I think I’d traced to the proposed state of Jefferson[1] (in the NorCal, south and east Oregon areas), which was going to get a vote in Congress but WWII got in the way and never happened. It comes up from time to time; you’ll see banners for it in rural areas.

So it should not be framed as a pushback to current politics. They feel they’ve had reasons for a while.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_...

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#156

Post by yesBoot »

buzzert wrote: post #136
yesBoot wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The war on drugs put people in prison for emotional belief those people were morally inferior. It rightly so should be abolished. To be replaced with trained medical help, detox programs, and a conversation about morality not tethered to superstition, or black and white judgments. But the fundies, acting out of emotion, prefer boxes. It’s all emotion since humans are motivated by such. It’s the outcome that should be…

> To be replaced with trained medical help, detox programs, and a conversation about morality not tethered to superstition, or black and white judgments Why can’t these programs exist while also having drugs be illegal? Also it doesn’t help your position by using childish words like “fundies”, FYI. Keep that on Reddit please.

Why must drugs be illegal?

Is it everyone else’s responsibility to protect you and your sensibilities?

It hasn’t prevented folks from consuming them, or becoming addicted.

If I’m childish for the use of a euphemism, what would you call living in an idealized reality that’s never existed?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#157

Post by cratermoon »

mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

You can understand what's going on in eastern Oregon (and Idaho and Nevada) a bit better with some background. It's not especially about taxes. https://longreads.com/bundyville/season-one/

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#158

Post by buzzert »

joshka wrote: post #148
buzzert wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be replaced with trained medical help, detox programs, and a conversation about morality not tethered to superstition, or black and white judgments Why can’t these programs exist while also having drugs be illegal? Also it doesn’t help your position by using childish words like “fundies”, FYI. Keep that on Reddit please.

> Why can’t these programs exist while also having drugs be illegal? How would you make that work? Consider if drugs are illegal, then getting medical help / detox requires admission of guilt. This seems like a fifth amendment problem.

Why should you have to admit anything to get treatment? Is that some kind of medical requirement I’m unaware of?

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#159

Post by u801e »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #106
URSpider94 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Part of this has to do with how we've been able to drive down agricultural costs by means of automation over the last century which has driven a move away from family farms to larger corporate farms. In 1900, just under 40 percent of the total US population lived on farms, and 60 percent lived in rural areas. Today, the respective figures are only about 1 percent and 20 percent.[1] Sure the coasts are creating more e…

This has also happened to manufacturing and coal mining to a certain extent. But, unlike agriculture, the demand for certain resources like coal is significantly less than it used to be, but people in the affected areas haven't been able to find work in other fields.
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