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Commander X16

commanderx16.com

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Re: Commander X16

#101
post #67
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

8-bit guy is known for destroying rare prototypes with his lack of engineering knowledge https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1309664882283950081 https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/izuswa...

calling someone a sociopath over making a mistake that affects only an inanimate object that was already defective is maybe a bit of an overreaction

I didnt call anyone anything, just cited one of the things he is widely known for in vintage computer circles.

for example https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76713

Re: Commander X16

#102
post #101
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

calling someone a sociopath over making a mistake that affects only an inanimate object that was already defective is maybe a bit of an overreaction

I didnt call anyone anything, just cited one of the things he is widely known for in vintage computer circles. for example https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=76713

I was referring to the twitter thread you linked, not yourself

Re: Commander X16

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His machine will probably end up costing pretty much as much and be less interesting. Stefany is a hyper-competent hardware engineer and her machine is excellent. It is an interesting machine -- and it exists. But I personally cancelled my order after a personality conflict with her. I personally am excited about the Mega65.

I'm curious; why cancel a product you want made by someone who you describe as competent due to a personality conflict? Some moral boundary or principle matter? I wouldn't think a clash of personalities should be a factor in such a transaction.

I was subscribed for a development board. Given the acrimonious relationship I couldn't see myself doing development on it.

Re: Commander X16

#104
post #13

Speaking of "modern retro computing" there is already a player in the town: C256 Foenix [1]. Based on 65c816, affordable, powerful and - most important - already available and well tested. It definitively deserve for user interest. For curious - there is an emulator available [2] (even one-and-half, because mine [3] is rather limited and created mostly for Forth [6, 7] development). 320x240 (double-pixel), 640x480, 8…

This sounds like a much better spec. Using the 65c816 keeps the 8-bit vibe but doesn't force you to play the bank switching game to access more than 64K. DVI instead of VGA itself is also enough to give it a much better chance of success.

> Using the 65c816 keeps the 8-bit vibe

Given that a 65c816 is what’s in the SNES, I’d say it has a distinctly 16-but vibe.

Don’t get me wrong; 16-bit is my favorite! Far too few retro projects targeting early-90s era tech, or its portable early-2000s mirror.

(Imagine if you will: a plug-and-play with extended GBA-clone hardware, with a tile-and-sprite PPU that could push 1080p@60 with tons of layered graphics colour-math + windowing + DMA effects, but which explicitly didn’t offer a bitmap mode, let alone 3D acceleration; and tack on both Flash storage and Ethernet APIs, exposed through simple MMIO hardware registers to the games, with all the complexity shunted to a Wii-like IO coprocessor running its own RTOS. It’d be the perfect modern platform for retro-modern 2D JRPGs to be released on. A WonderSwan+++, per se. A PlayStation Zero.)

Re: Commander X16

#105
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can work with 24 bit pseudo registers in the direct page using the [dd],y addressing mode, basically scaling up the very useful (dd),y on the 6502 to be 24+16 bits instead of 16+8. I am currently working on a compiler for the 65816 and has taken the approach of avoiding mode shifts as much as possible. I also lock the direct page and bank register to a fixed place while running normally. This simplifies it a lot.…

Yeah the Mega65 is also going to have these oddities. From reading though it does sound like it offers a nifty 32-bit single register from merging A,X,Y,Z. And I believe it also has relocatable direct page. So some tricks borrowed from the 6809. When I was playing with the 816 I did use the technique you describe using the direct page. But I recall there being limits on where I could use that. The 816 is a bunch of c…

I looked at the Mega65 with its three (not quite) 6502 CPU variants and I just found it so weird. Basically no 16 bit operations, instead a couple of 32 bit operations. Z register is no longer 0 and you have to set it non-zero to change bank configuration. Five instructions (nine bytes) to change bank and I do not understand how you can save the previous bank setting in case you want to restore it.

If you move the stack or zero page, the well known trick of using absolute plus index register no longer works the same as on the 6502 (breaking existing code). Sure, you could hardcode a different page, but the point of moving the stack is (probably) so you could do multi-tasking. But if processes are given different stack pages, they can no longer share code (if using such well known tricks in the code). Moving zero page is in 256 steps, so you cannot use it as a movable stack frame (the 65816 can set it to any location in the first 64K).

I know there is a lot of interest in the Mega65, but I found it had so many poorly made design decisions that made me want to stay far away.

So far I find the 65816 to a well designed 16 bits ISA (I am also familiar with PDP-11, MSP430, MELPS7700 and Motorola 6812) that gives a lot of 6502 vibes, but is just a lot better. There are a couple of odd corners, probably due to the opcode space as you mention, but I would not call it a bunch of compromises.

Re: Commander X16

#106

While I love, love, love retrocomputing I don't understand why 99% of it is "retro-next" computing - instead of designing computer from some era people like to design much beefier next-gen machines. 2MB of RAM? 640x480? Why not use Amiga instead? Designing a machine that would beat c64 is insanely appealing to me. Designing a machine that would beat c64 because it came out a decade later and had larger ram chips and…

Well, electronics-oriented owners have built “next” systems even back in the '80s (and '90s) (and '00s): overclocked (non video signal related parts), added memory (in a dozen of more or less incompatible ways), added expansion boards with a lot more powerful hardware, etc. Usually, the more someone was into it, the more unique their configuration was. So it continues to this day.

At the same time, anyone can actually go the pure retro way, and spend a couple of days soldering the period-correct home computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWCYo1UcOQ

Re: Commander X16

#107

All these machines end up involving one or more FPGAs -- to varying degrees -- simply because of the requirements and logistics. There's varying types of purism involved ("FPGA only where we would have used a custom chip" or "FPGA but not for the CPU" etc) but once you start down that path the whole thing starts to seem silly as with many of these machines the entire functionality could be done on a single relatively…

I'm building a hobby computer from scratch with a modern 80s era CPU. Anyone doing this kind of thing as a hobby has to decide what kind of project it is, what you want to get out of it, and where you draw the line between modern and old. For me, I had never done electronics before so actually wiring up the components and doing logic at a electrical level was interesting in itself. But also I'm interested applying my…

Why not a 65816? That gives you the 6502 compatibility and a larger address space mode when you want it.

In a way, an anemic CPU makes sense if you go back to the old Commodore model of smart peripherlas. You don't need a lot of CPU horsepower, for example, if you can communicate with the mass storage/network card/etc at a high level and it just DMAs into place.

Re: Commander X16

#108
post #2

I'm a big retrocomputing enthusiast (in the C64 and Apple // realms) and the people doing this project are well-known in the community, but I just have trouble believing this will be successful. I don't want a computer that's kinda like a C64. I have a C64, and anyone who really likes that platform can either buy one on ebay or emulate it. A new platform that is a shadow of a platform from 40 years ago is such a nich…

There’s now quite a few of these ‘new retro’ projects around, but right now you can’t actually buy any of them from stock (Foenix, Commander X16, Mega65, ZX Spectum Next) These projects often seem to get bogged down in the costs and practicalities of creating the plastic parts rather than the electronics/software. Large injection-molded enclosures aren’t cheap (for lowing-volume products) and custom keyboards/key cap…

That's exactly why X16 uses PC parts for that. The case is a micro-ATX case, the keyboard is a PC keyboard.

Re: Commander X16

#109
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick googling found this: http://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberry... Apparently rpi spends about as long on vc boot as it does for kernel+userland combined... Not great imho

The article says it's about 1.5-2 seconds. For a firmware that's meant to just boot it's not great, but it's not as bad as I expected.

You’re right, that wouldn’t be too bad. I remember it being closer to five seconds, which I found really disappointing, and there are at least some hints of people with a similar experiences: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=278248

All of this might depend on peripherals, settings, SD card and so on, so maybe there’s more room for optimization than I had realized.

Re: Commander X16

#110
post #40

> Multiple output formats (VGA, NTSC Composite, NTSC S-Video, RGB video) at a fixed resolution of 640x480@60Hz Hmm. Please HDMI? Please wide screen? (I mean 853x480 or even 426x240 not 1080p). I don't see the retro monitor this is supposed to be paired with for sale.

Agree with HDMI. But you can get plenty of new 4:3 aspect ratio displays — primarily meant for security cameras, backup cameras and the like.

Aren't those postage stamp size? And normal people are much more likely to already have a bunch of 16:9 displays and about 0 4:3.
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