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Commander X16

commanderx16.com

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Re: Commander X16

#71

Post by zokier »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #36
codeflo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it's not just Linux. A little known fact is that during startup, before running a single instruction of Linux kernel code, the Pi spends the first several seconds booting the closed source OS that runs the weird Broadcom "VideoCore". Only then does it initialize the ARM processor and start the Linux kernel.

That's weird. I thought that VideoCore boots fairly fast.

Quick googling found this: http://himeshp.blogspot.com/2018/08/fast-boot-with-raspberry...

Apparently rpi spends about as long on vc boot as it does for kernel+userland combined... Not great imho

Re: Commander X16

#72

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

rasz wrote: post #65
hvs wrote: post #2

I'm a big retrocomputing enthusiast (in the C64 and Apple // realms) and the people doing this project are well-known in the community, but I just have trouble believing this will be successful. I don't want a computer that's kinda like a C64. I have a C64, and anyone who really likes that platform can either buy one on ebay or emulate it. A new platform that is a shadow of a platform from 40 years ago is such a nich…

8-bit guy is known for destroying rare prototypes with his lack of engineering knowledge https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1309664882283950081 https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/izuswa...

I thought this was going to be about that time he hooked two power supplies up to the same machine [0]. That time was worse in my opinion because anyone who knows anything about how a switching power supply works could tell you that was a bad idea, but I still have a hard time getting worked up about it. The torx bits thing doesn't even really register.

It may be rare and special to us, but at the end of the day it is just hardware.

Re: Commander X16

#73

Post by fallat »

mhd wrote: post #54

The retro designs that I really want to see made real would be the ones done by "Arne"[1]. Most of the designs would be impossible, being pretty steeped in trademarks, but they've explored some interesting ideas, like alternate keyboard layouts (ABC, 4 rows etc.) and mashups of all kinds of "retro" machines. We're also not seeing that many 16-bit faux-retro designs (i.e. not straight-forward Amiga/Atari clones). Eith…

Always loved this. I wish people would dream more like them.

Re: Commander X16

#74

Post by cmrdporcupine »

karmakaze wrote: post #60
aniou wrote: post #13

Speaking of "modern retro computing" there is already a player in the town: C256 Foenix [1]. Based on 65c816, affordable, powerful and - most important - already available and well tested. It definitively deserve for user interest. For curious - there is an emulator available [2] (even one-and-half, because mine [3] is rather limited and created mostly for Forth [6, 7] development). 320x240 (double-pixel), 640x480, 8…

This sounds like a much better spec. Using the 65c816 keeps the 8-bit vibe but doesn't force you to play the bank switching game to access more than 64K. DVI instead of VGA itself is also enough to give it a much better chance of success.

It's true you don't have to bank switch... but... the 816 doesn't have 32 bit or even 24-bit registers, so working with memory regions over 64k (such as the video framebuffer) is surprisingly awkward. You end up fiddling with the bank registers a lot, and doing a lot of futzing around. Having screen resolutions that require a framebuffer >64k isn't a good match for it, for example. And the program counter is a 16-bit register, too, so you can't have programs over 64k without incrementing the program bank register at the end of the 64k region, etc. Also the stack and direct page can't be located out of the bottom 64k, etc.

So while changing a bank register is easier than doing bank switching with a 6502, it's actually not that different. And using the 16-bit registers on the 816 require a mode change, so working back and forth between 8 and 16 bit values is also awkward.

The 816 on paper sounds good at first. In practice, after working with it for a while (I wrote an emulator for an earlier version of her machine and then started working on software) I found I didn't enjoy the 816 as much as I thought I would and understand better now why Commodore and Atari made the jump to the 68000 instead of to the 816 or other modifications to the 6502.

Re: Commander X16

#75

Post by scj »

hvs wrote: post #2

I'm a big retrocomputing enthusiast (in the C64 and Apple // realms) and the people doing this project are well-known in the community, but I just have trouble believing this will be successful. I don't want a computer that's kinda like a C64. I have a C64, and anyone who really likes that platform can either buy one on ebay or emulate it. A new platform that is a shadow of a platform from 40 years ago is such a nich…

I think a reasonably priced RISC-V psuedo-retrocomputer that boots directly into Lisp / Scheme on simple to use hardware would be a great computer to learn programming on.

Should be just as understandable to a newbie as a 6502 / Basic combo, but with a much better path to current computing environments.

Re: Commander X16

#76

Post by billpg »

I don't get it.

I get building a C64 (or other retro systems) but with HDMI ports and components that can be sourced without dumpster diving. I don't want to replace a bunch of capacitors to play 80s games either.

But why would I spend good money on a Commander X16 when I could buy a (say) Raspberry Pi. If I'm going to buy a modern system, then why not buy a modern system?

Re: Commander X16

#77

Post by naikrovek »

billpg wrote: post #76

I don't get it. I get building a C64 (or other retro systems) but with HDMI ports and components that can be sourced without dumpster diving. I don't want to replace a bunch of capacitors to play 80s games either. But why would I spend good money on a Commander X16 when I could buy a (say) Raspberry Pi. If I'm going to buy a modern system, then why not buy a modern system?

there are subtle differences.

some people want the real hardware. some people want to need a stack of cartridges or tapes and to go through the motions of committing to a decision such as which game to play.

if it is virtual, or emulated, there's almost no weight to decisions you make, because it's so easy to switch games if you don't immediately like the game you chose. I find that I don't give things a chance as I would if I had to get up and walk to change a cartridge in a real SNES, as an example.

if emulation works for you, then emulate. go crazy. I don't get emulation, and I'm not going to tell someone that they're wrong for liking it, because they aren't.

for some, emulation isn't enough, that's all.

there are also technical reasons people don't like emulation, but most people don't care about those as much as they care about the experience of the old school systems.

Re: Commander X16

#78

Post by cmrdporcupine »

gecko wrote: post #46
aniou wrote: post #13

Speaking of "modern retro computing" there is already a player in the town: C256 Foenix [1]. Based on 65c816, affordable, powerful and - most important - already available and well tested. It definitively deserve for user interest. For curious - there is an emulator available [2] (even one-and-half, because mine [3] is rather limited and created mostly for Forth [6, 7] development). 320x240 (double-pixel), 640x480, 8…

I thought the Foenix was canceled. We had a discussion about it the last time the Commander X16 came up: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23801266

I forgot I still get her newsletter despite her enmity towards me, so here's what she said in her April email:

"Now... At some point in April I was supposed to begin a new job which would have brought the Foenix back to the Hobby level but things didn't work out quite as planned, did I dodged a bullet? Time will tell! So in a way, what I am trying to say is that for almost a year I have been resisting the idea to make the Foenix a full-time gig and despite my best effort to avoid it, it seems pretty obvious to me that I won't be able to escape it..."

She then goes on to discuss project future and sustainability and even hints at maybe moving beyond the 816 at some point.

So TLDR she's still working on it on an aggressive basis and it's not going to be abandoned.

Re: Commander X16

#79

Post by talideon »

zozbot234 wrote: post #20
codeflo wrote: post #17

Something I’d buy, and that the Raspberry Pi almost might have been, is a computer running a “retro OS” (instantly boots, BASIC-like commands, direct access to hardware) on a semi-modern ARM chip with a few megs of RAM and HDMI out. That would be fun to tinker with and program for. The problem with this is that it’s so incredibly hard to do anything in 8-bit, I can’t imagine many people going to all that trouble if t…

You can run RISC OS on a Raspberry Pi, that also supports a "Boot to BASIC" mode.

BBC BASIC V is one of the best of the classic BASIC interpreters too!

Re: Commander X16

#80

Post by kenny11 »

codeflo wrote: post #17

Something I’d buy, and that the Raspberry Pi almost might have been, is a computer running a “retro OS” (instantly boots, BASIC-like commands, direct access to hardware) on a semi-modern ARM chip with a few megs of RAM and HDMI out. That would be fun to tinker with and program for. The problem with this is that it’s so incredibly hard to do anything in 8-bit, I can’t imagine many people going to all that trouble if t…

There are a number of hobby projects that aim to do exactly that (provide the instant-on, boot to BASIC experience of old 8 bit micros) without just being a recreation of an old system.

One that looks particularly interesting is the Color Maximite 2, which meets your specs except for the HDMI out (it uses VGA):

https://geoffg.net/maximite.html

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