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Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

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Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#121

Post by saddlerustle »

talideon wrote: post #115
saddlerustle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tried to delete FB, ig or WA account completely? Every imaginable Ui obstruction and retention trick will bother you on the way out. Deleting WhatsApp is Settings -> Account -> Delete My Account -> Delete My Account Deleting Facebook is Settings -> Account Ownership -> Deactivation and Deletion -> Delete Account (With a very clear choice between deactivation and permanent deletion) -> Delete Account Compare that to…

Except that's not really what happens with Facebook. I deleted my account there ages ago, and discovered later when checking haveibeenpwned.com that the email address I used there was part of a data dump from Facebook. So, do I believe that FB really delete your data when you request to permanently delete it? Nope, not in the slightest.

The last published DPC audit found that it does [1]. There's really no reason to subject themselves to huge fines and lie about it, a very small fraction of facebook users delete anything.

The "data dump" you're referring to was probably scraped from public facebook pages before you deleted the account. There has never to my knowledge been a case of private data becoming public that was exfiltrated from facebook proper.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20171218060100/https://www.datap...

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#122

Post by trasz »

messe wrote: post #17
trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

No, interactions - like, discussions - with people from other countries is, for most people, a minority of their overall interactions.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#123

Post by trasz »

pjc50 wrote: post #15
trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

A tiny minority of Facebook users is millions of people. Lots of people have international family and friends. A fallback approach is infeasible for legal requirements, unless it's there for appealing the fine to a lower value. The question is potentially very difficult, and could only be resolved by constructive engagement with the party making the rules. Don't forget what happens when people travel.

The question can be solved trivially easily by just using a big-hammer approach of banning any transfer of personal information to US, period. There are no reasons for allowing the transfer to happen, other than making it easier for Facebook to make money. FB would implement it by only storing interactions involving any EU nationals in EU.

We do want to make it easier for Facebook for political reasons, though, and it's still not particularly hard: just declare that only the data/conversations involving US citizens can be stored on US servers.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#124

Post by trasz »

twobitshifter wrote: post #8
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Your friendship can be stored in US or France. The problem is, everything else about that French national is still being stored in US, even if it's in no way related to US nationals.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#125

Post by trasz »

evanelias wrote: post #46
twobitshifter wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Yes, this is exactly the challenge. It extends far beyond just ad-targeting. On the database side, social network sharding, replication, and caching schemes aren't typically designed based on national origin of users. If you have a full datacenter (i.e. containing databases, not just a frontend or CDN / PoP footprint) in a country, then typically the entire logical data set -- all data for all users worldwide -- is p…

So Facebook would have to redesign their sharding. Who cares?

Also, let's not forget that we're talking about a service with absolutely horrible reliability. Facebook only cares about reliability at scale; at a single person level reliability is quite poor; you can suddenly discover that your random post has 60 thousand likes (for a few minutes), or a friend of yours has a new post (they don't). Thus, the questions of "what if something has >10ms latency" don't really matter - Facebook fails much worse than that all the time.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#126

Post by trasz »

endymi0n wrote: post #76
twobitshifter wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

This is spot on and a big problem. And although nobody here including me would shed a tear about Facebook in this case, I am worried about the precedent this sets. Facebook has the deep pockets to either build this through or fight it legally to the bitter end. But for any startup trying to build a global X, this can put a serious blocker in the way. Global sharding of entities and working with that isn‘t for the fai…

For any startup parasitizing on its users, you mean.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#127

Post by trasz »

sgregnt wrote: post #48
graphtrader wrote: post #3

Ahh poor Facebook. I feel so bad for them. Has to be tough not being able to steal people's data.

This comment is very biased, who are you to speak for all facebook users? For one thing, Facebook allows me to stay connected with my family in another country. I'm infinity grateful to it for that, and I'm ready to exchange getting this amazing free service for my very personal information. No one stole this data from me, I'm happy with this arrangement. Same with other the services: Google's, amazon, and what not..…

There are plenty of services that would serve that role - staying connected with your family - at least as good as FB does. That's the part most people are missing, I think: that FB doesn't really have that much to offer, apart from its market share. And, because of FB monopoly, pretty much anything that hurts them is good for the market, ie everyone, in particular their users.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#128

Post by trasz »

jmclnx wrote: post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

Nothing, because the only important asset FB has is its market share. If they left the EU, you'd have a functionally similar alternative very, very quickly.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#129

Post by trasz »

sterlind wrote: post #63
marderfarker2 wrote: post #53

All these problems are already solved by China, by outright banning these data leeches a decade ago.

ah yes, that great bastion of privacy. and they've had the right to be forgotten since June 4, 1989!

So how exactly the privacy laws in China (if any) compare to the privacy laws in the US (if any)?

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#130

Post by bryan_w »

trasz wrote: post #123
pjc50 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tiny minority of Facebook users is millions of people. Lots of people have international family and friends. A fallback approach is infeasible for legal requirements, unless it's there for appealing the fine to a lower value. The question is potentially very difficult, and could only be resolved by constructive engagement with the party making the rules. Don't forget what happens when people travel.

The question can be solved trivially easily by just using a big-hammer approach of banning any transfer of personal information to US, period. There are no reasons for allowing the transfer to happen, other than making it easier for Facebook to make money. FB would implement it by only storing interactions involving any EU nationals in EU. We do want to make it easier for Facebook for political reasons, though, and i…

Are you saying that an American shouldn't be able to pull up the profile of an EU user? Seems a bit extreme.
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