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Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

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Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#71

Post by gumby »

twobitshifter wrote: post #8
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Still, solving that is hardly “devastating”.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#72

Post by foolfoolz »

twobitshifter wrote: post #8
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

i don’t think it’s that complicated. your account is in a US database. your friends in a french database.

the us db can have a list of friends by user id and those friends might be in other countries db. however your identity and data live in us db only.

if you create a message the message can either be stored in the us and referenced by id in france (or duplicated since you intentionally sent it there). same for photos

this makes each transmission of data across regional boundaries more intentional and easy to add governance checks

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#73

Post by [deleted] »

jmclnx wrote: post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#74

Post by mrighele »

twobitshifter wrote: post #8
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

An "easy" solution would be for FB to lobby for the USA to adopt privacy laws similar to those in Europe. Then maybe the data transfer ban could be lifted (somehow I suspect that will not be the case)

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#75

Post by tchalla »

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

> I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU?

It's devastating to their "cost of doing business" not "conduct of business".

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#76

Post by endymi0n »

twobitshifter wrote: post #8
rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

This is spot on and a big problem. And although nobody here including me would shed a tear about Facebook in this case, I am worried about the precedent this sets.

Facebook has the deep pockets to either build this through or fight it legally to the bitter end.

But for any startup trying to build a global X, this can put a serious blocker in the way. Global sharding of entities and working with that isn‘t for the faint of heart. I know we‘d stand still for a year or two trying to implement something similar as a small to mid sized startup.

Philosophically and as a user, I actually like the idea, but wearing the systems architect here, this requirement scares me to no end and could throw a literal wrench into the operations of any global effort.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#77

Post by etrabroline »

jmclnx wrote: post #19
trasz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you, as an US citizen, be fine with Facebook transferring all your data to another country with no control over it?

People using facebook ? They do not care at all about where, how and volume of their data. All they want is "pointy/clicky" access to numb their minds. But storing data outside the US, where would US people get their pics from should facebook fold, I will loose my best and free Backup Servise, the NSA :)

I've seen this argument a lot recently. "If we screw other people in a sufficiently convoluted and Rube-Goldbergian enough way then it's almost like we're not screwing over anyone at all!"

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#78

Post by iamacyborg »

mortehu wrote: post #60
toyg wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now now, they don’t “steal” it, they just “collect” it. All this data falls off the back of a truck, they just pick it up.

Isn't the main function of Facebook to allow users to upload or enter contents for others to view? It seems like people here tend to think of ad profiles as the only data that matters, but Facebook "collects" messages you post and photos you upload, just like most email services "collect" all your emails. This kind of data is far more sensitive than your ad profile.

> This kind of data is far more sensitive than your ad profile.

Yes and no.

certainly people share and post sensitive stuff on Facebook. But Facebook knowing I've visited certain categories of websites because those sites have a Facebook pixel or they're running a third party widget that has a FB pixel is historically a much more opaque form of data collection.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#79

Post by mdasen »

I know that a lot of people's reaction to this might be, "screw Facebook", but the ramification might be "entrench Facebook such that no one can compete with them."

If the Irish data regulator enforces the provisional order, it would effectively end the privileged access companies in the US have to personal data from Europe and put them on the same footing as companies in other nations outside the bloc.

This isn't just about Facebook. This is about whether every small company trying to bootstrap itself needs to take large steps to architect their data storage in a way that allows for segregation between European and American data.

For Facebook, this might be costly and annoying to deal with. But what if you want to launch a new Flickr, Tumblr, Twitter, Airbnb, recipe website, etc.? You're a team of 2-4 trying to get things off the ground. Do you need to make sure that you are unavailable in the EU? Do you need to work on splitting data storage before you even find product-market-fit?

Like, Airbnb certainly hosts lots of data about people and places, but when they were just starting out and trying to get traction, it seems like it would be a big hurdle to comply with this.

Facebook can comply with this. I think it would be a big burden on anyone trying to compete with Facebook going forward or the ability of new companies to get off the ground.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#80

Post by gentleman11 »

corobo wrote: post #64
evanelias wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is exactly the challenge. It extends far beyond just ad-targeting. On the database side, social network sharding, replication, and caching schemes aren't typically designed based on national origin of users. If you have a full datacenter (i.e. containing databases, not just a frontend or CDN / PoP footprint) in a country, then typically the entire logical data set -- all data for all users worldwide -- is p…

Sounds like the challenge is using peoples' data in a way that isn't scumbaggerific to be honest

Correct. There would have been no problem if Facebook were not abusing peoples data and trust so dramatically and brazenly, but Europe is forced to do this to deal with the American lawmakers refusing to step up
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