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Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

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Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#41

In modern cloud data is likely encrypted on disk and typically spread across servers. It’s not really feasible to access the data by physically taking control of the servers or disks. Does the physical location really matter? If authorities need to access the data, they would anyways need a higher level access to it. In this sense it is more relevant who is controlling the data and where and under what jurisdiction t…

It's not a matter of data being encrypted, it's about the US authorities being able to demand decrypted access to the data of EU citizens from Facebook.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#42
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

> Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Absolutely yes. Especially across two continents. Europeans who have friends from Europe would all be in Europe anyway. Europe is larger than US btw, it has two times the population. Russia+Turkey+Germany alone account for 95% of the population of the United States.

I would assume that most Europeans know people living on another continent, or at least people who have lived there in the recent past. There are plenty of careers and hobbies where you make international connections, plenty of jobs that require you to live somewhere else for a while, and plenty of people looking for opportunities elsewhere.

Globally, around 1 person in 30 lives outside their country of origin, so knowing people in other countries should be common.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#43
post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

It would be inconvenient for me, but as long as there is something else we can move to (Diaspora), I will survive.

I know two people who have married people from the US who have moved here. I imagine they wouldn't be very happy not being able to interact with their friends across the seas nearly as easily. Who would they blame? That is a good question.

On the other hand, Twitter would be pretty pointless if I could only interact with EU tweeps. I don't know if they would be hit by this, I assume there is a GDPR exception for this the user publishes?

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#44
post #11
post #7

> The case stems from European Union concerns that United States government surveillance may not respect the privacy rights of EU citizens These are valid concerns that I share as a U.S. citizen concerned about my own privacy from government surveillance. It's appropriate for other countries to share them and to take action. But is it clear that government surveillance by EU countries is more respecting of privacy? I…

Would you, as an US citizen, be fine with Facebook transferring all your data to another country with no control over it?

I'd be more comfortable with that than with my own government, that cares what I do and how I vote, having access to facebook's data on me. The scariest part of European data sitting on US servers for Europeans is that the US will have absolutely no regulations keeping them from harvesting, slicing, and packaging every bit of it, and sending it back to Europe.

Keeping the data from being shipped out is a good step (hopefully not just focused on Facebook), but reimportation of that data is a laundering process that can render local data protections moot.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#45
post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

It's not possible, because how are they going to block EU nationals from continuing to use the service? People can use VPN, disguise themselves as Americans and so on. There is no way they can wiggle themselves out of it unless they'll close the entire operation, and that is not going to happen as Facebook is a spying front.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#46

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Yes, this is exactly the challenge. It extends far beyond just ad-targeting. On the database side, social network sharding, replication, and caching schemes aren't typically designed based on national origin of users.

If you have a full datacenter (i.e. containing databases, not just a frontend or CDN / PoP footprint) in a country, then typically the entire logical data set -- all data for all users worldwide -- is presumably replicated there. Other systems and services will then make assumptions that any object can be looked up with low sub-ms latency.

Social networks often contain activity streams and other pages that include content from many users at once. Consider algorithmic ranking of feed content, comments on popular page content, etc: how do you even implement this if even some small subset of the data needs to be fetched from halfway around the world on every page view?

Anyway, to answer your original question, friendships are bidirectional associations and would typically be stored in two places: one entry in your db shard, and one entry in your friend's shard. Photos are objects and presumably would be "owned" by a single user or page and located there (at least in terms of the metadata about the photo); however tags may be associations which have entries on multiple shards just like friendships. If some of these shards can only be accessed across a trans-Atlantic link, the entire scheme falls apart due to the latency.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#47
post #41

In modern cloud data is likely encrypted on disk and typically spread across servers. It’s not really feasible to access the data by physically taking control of the servers or disks. Does the physical location really matter? If authorities need to access the data, they would anyways need a higher level access to it. In this sense it is more relevant who is controlling the data and where and under what jurisdiction t…

It's not a matter of data being encrypted, it's about the US authorities being able to demand decrypted access to the data of EU citizens from Facebook.

And, although this is an educated guess, about US businesses paying for Facebook ad services targeting EU customers using the collected data in a way that GDPR would block in EU.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#48

Ahh poor Facebook. I feel so bad for them. Has to be tough not being able to steal people's data.

This comment is very biased, who are you to speak for all facebook users?

For one thing, Facebook allows me to stay connected with my family in another country. I'm infinity grateful to it for that, and I'm ready to exchange getting this amazing free service for my very personal information. No one stole this data from me, I'm happy with this arrangement.

Same with other the services: Google's, amazon, and what not... Hell, the progress all these amazing services brought made my live on earth a heaven really (not sarcastic)!

I'm personaly not afraid of big tech, imho they compete with each other, they rise and fall, let them be. I'm afraid of regulation that incentivizes lobbying, kill competition, and create long term monopolies.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#49
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

> Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Absolutely yes. Especially across two continents. Europeans who have friends from Europe would all be in Europe anyway. Europe is larger than US btw, it has two times the population. Russia+Turkey+Germany alone account for 95% of the population of the United States.

> Russia+Turkey+Germany

I believe, in the context of this proposed ban "Europe" means "the EU", not geographical Europe. So both Russia and Turkey don't count.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#50
post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

When they tried a much smaller version of that in Australia, it went very poorly for them - I doubt they will attempt a similar maneuver anytime soon.

https://www.ft.com/content/cac1ff54-b976-4ae4-b810-46c29ab26...

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