Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#21

Post by corty » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #16

twobitshifter wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Good point. Is the ban more about where content is stored or how it is accessed? I guess there is nothing bad about you seeing a page served from Europe. Otherwise, a lot of this data presumably isn’t covered by GDPR. You and your friend are ultimately user_ids with a relationship_id or sth, and these surely aren’t GDPR-controlled (but they point at details that are)

Data that can be traced back to a person is covered by GDPR. If the user_ids have attached user datasets somewhere they are covered. If they don't have that, but the graph formed by user_ids and relationship_ids is isomorphic to publically known facts or facts that people with access to the graph have, that make people identifiable in the graph, it is covered by GDPR. One example would be a is-neighbour-of relation for peoples' addresses together with a public phone/address-book.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#22

Post by NicoJuicy » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #8

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

What I think:

Your message will be stored in the US. Your friends message in the EU.

The metadata ( conversation table of both) would be stored in the US.

Your picture from Europe as a US user with US residency will be stored in the US. As Facebook wouldn't want your data under GDPR and since it's also not required.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#23

Post by jlelse » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:18 PM UTC

jmclnx wrote: post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

I wouldn't find it bad for Facebook to be banned in Europe. This would be a chance for less data-hungry messaging services and social networks.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#24

Post by stingraycharles » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #17

trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

I think you’d be surprised that HN is not representative for the general population, and that talking with people from another continent over WhatsApp is, in fact, an exception and not the rule.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#25

Post by pm24601 » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #8

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

I, an American, have a friend in France, where is our friendship stored? I send a message to my friend in France they send me one back, where are these two messages stored? We have a photo taken while traveling together in Belgium with 2 other Americans, what server? I could see this being a problem only effectively solved by a separate EU and US Facebook. It is not clear what data they are worried about transmission…

Oh gee, you're right. URLs don't work across national boundaries.

Seriously?

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#26

Post by Iv » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #5

I can’t see why it would be devastating in practice. Why can’t the servers that deduce every little thing about the users be also based in EU? If I want a worldwide ad (is that even a thing?) for left-leaning horse owners between ages of 20-27.5 with a child and at least 2 partners, can’t that be dished out from an EU server for EU users?

In some countries like France they will have to comply with the local laws that restrict strongly non-anonymous listing of persons and basically bans some criterion like race or religion (bad memories from WWII). I suspect their algorithms can't offer the guarantees asked by the law for personal data.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#27

Post by peoplefromibiza » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #17

trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

> Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority?

Absolutely yes.

Especially across two continents.

Europeans who have friends from Europe would all be in Europe anyway.

Europe is larger than US btw, it has two times the population.

Russia+Turkey+Germany alone account for 95% of the population of the United States.

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#28

Post by peoplefromibiza » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #15

trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

A tiny minority of Facebook users is millions of people. Lots of people have international family and friends. A fallback approach is infeasible for legal requirements, unless it's there for appealing the fine to a lower value. The question is potentially very difficult, and could only be resolved by constructive engagement with the party making the rules. Don't forget what happens when people travel.

many more people have friends and family in the US, but are not allowed to enter the country freely.

Borders are heavily controlled by USA, why shouldn't other countries to the same?

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#29

Post by DeusExMachina » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

messe wrote: post #17

trasz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. You could handle them by falling back to the current way of doing this, ie US servers, and still protect the vast majority of data that's not related to US citizens.

> I suspect cases like this are a tiny minority. Knowing people in other countries is a tiny minority? Maybe in the US, given its size, but it's pretty widespread and normal in Europe.

I don't think it is.

I belong to a group that has several connections in countries all around Europe due to frequent traveling to dance events. Most of these people post on Facebook in their own language and attend local events.

Outside of this bubble, things are very different. The majority of people never move from where they are born, speak poor English and never travel.

While the people with international connections are surely a relevant amount, and even adding expats that keep contact with friends and family, it's the group with not international connections that I would define as "widespread" and "normal".

Re: Facebook faces ‘devastating’ EU-to-US data transfer ban

#30

Post by ramphastidae » Sat, May 15, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

jmclnx wrote: post #18

I wonder what would happen if Facebook choose to pull out of the EU with a large banner "Due to new EU regulations, we have to stop operations until regulations change". Would there be a large public outcry ? Me, I would like to see facebook, google, apple... reigned in, but they have a large bank account where that can "donate" to pols, so we will probably see a big loophole appear.

They would never do that. Eyeballs for ads are all that matter. Their service is based on quantity, not quality.