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Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#171

Post by danShumway »

prepend wrote: post #153
danShumway wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll still get paid for your normal job. It's not like that money would be thrown away, you're not working for free. You go to your job and work because you want more money . I think UBI is largely untested and its proponents should proceed with caution. But I also think people are overconfident in assuming that people wouldn't work; the reality is that we don't have a ton of data in either direction. If the 20th-2…

> If the 20th-21st century has taught us anything, it's that consumerism is a very powerful motivator. Or, perhaps, that there is much attention on consumers who spend significantly as they have “louder” lifestyles that are easy to show. Poverty rates are high with 14% of the US under the poverty line [0] and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much. And I think it’s risky to equate considering as a lar…

Well, yeah, like I said:

> Whether consumerism is a powerful enough motivator... I just think people are very over-confident talking about what is definitely going to happen in a system that has basically never been tried before.

People are really eager to look at populations and make very strong assertions about what their intrinsic motivators are with (in my mind) little evidence.

> and I don’t think consumerism is motivating them very much.

Are 14% of the population below poverty levels because they like living there? Because our systems discourage saving money once you're on wellfare? Because of market pressures? We have basically zero large-scale experiments, but people on both sides of the UBI test seem really confident that they know what everyone will do.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#172

Post by re-al »

UBI is part of the same technocratic agenda. This is all planned - take a look at the nice words here: https://sdgs.un.org/2030agenda

UBI will only foster greater dependence on the government. Most will not be able afford to exercise personal judgement if you stand what becomes essential money to survive on. When we don't do what the governors mandate, we will lose the UBI, the right to travel, etc. These are dangerous times, and I see nothing to cheer about here. And in case anyone is in any doubt, we are moving into a corporate run, fascist dictatorship.

Those governing us are not our friends. But we are giving up our natural freedom to move, breathe, control what we put into our bodies.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#173

Post by growse »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #139
growse wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's where my taxes will go. The welfare state already receives the largest fraction of your taxes. Personally, I'm in favour of things that make the welfare state more cost-effective. > And I have to pay almost a grand a month for private healthcare because of incompetent NHS. Maybe I should move to Wales to get some of my money back. You don't have to, you choose to.

NHS has been pretty terrible in my experience and thank God I have Bupa now. You don't have to, but if you have something you need serious treatment for you'd better go private. They didn't do any tests when presenting symptoms of a stomach ulcer after queueing for 3 hours (I had to do a private test to find out). Statistically I was unlikely t have it because of my age. The first pregnancy went ok (albeit nowhere cl…

I have extensive experience with the NHS (unfortunately) and have pretty much always been very well looked after. The only exception was probably maternity post-delivery, but that's not anything to do with the fact that it was the NHS.

But that's irrelevant. You can prove pretty much anything with personal anecdotes - what matters is the big picture. If you're against the NHS, you should probably put some thought into answering the question of "How do we stop poor people dying from preventable conditions?" (assuming that this is a desired end goal).

Also, Bupa aren't going to take you to the hospital at 3am when you have severe kidney stones, or unconscious after having been hit by a drunk driver.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#174

Post by neom »

chrisseaton wrote: post #148
neom wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take out pensions(~100b gbp), the UK spends (very) approx. 100 billion pounds a year on social assistance. I think OP is suggesting taking that 100 billion and dividing it evenly among the people of the UK vs specifically to the folks who have applied.

Why not include pensions? Since your pension could be replaced by your basic income. But if you do, it's about £3.5k a year each I think. Not a lot of money. Certainly not enough to live on for a basic standard of living in our society.

I agree but I seperated it for whose who might not, this way you can choose how you think about it. :)

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#175

Post by Kliment »

chii wrote: post #167
pjc50 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The drive from this comes out of the right, who believe that work is the only valid route out of poverty. Regardless of actual capacity to work.

> only valid route out of poverty well, what other routes are there?

For the fuckers currently running the UK, primarily a combination of inheritance and corruption.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#176

Post by bjarneh »

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #70

Nobody has yet to explain the incentive for minimum paid workers to go to work once UBI payments becomes equal to a minimum paid job.

We have this situation where I live (Norway). I.e. you will get payed pretty much the same for a low paying job as you get payed when unemployed by the government. Note that we don't have minimum wage here, but it's not easy to pay people less than they get in unemployment benefits.

It still seems that people choose to work. Of course things could be different in other countries, there are clearly a number of factors at work here....

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#177

Post by _qwfv »

vageli wrote: post #125
waheoo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What don't you get? They pay the price of it but don't get it, may as well pay the price of it and get the benefits it provides.

All things being equal, wouldn't that greatly reduce the benefit amount per person?

Administration costs go way down. We're spending a ton on making sure that only the "right" people get benefits and policing the poor.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#178

Post by Already__Taken »

cbmuser wrote: post #123
lexicality wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very interesting way of phrasing that question. Do you think the fact that no one would want to do these jobs for minimum wage if they aren't being forced to by threat of poverty might suggest that we need to approach those jobs differently?

> Do you think the fact that no one would want to do these jobs for minimum wage if they aren't being forced to by threat of poverty might suggest that we need to approach those jobs differently? So you want to pay your cleaning personnel the same wage as a heart surgeon? Don’t you think that such high wages will eventually just raise prices?

That's such a strawman as to be dishonest and bring bad faith to the discussion. _nobody_ but you is saying that.

By the same logic if a heart surgeon for some reason wanted to drive an uber you think they are getting paid $1000+ now? Why would anything about this change?

prices will fluctuate by supply and demand. I could buy 100$ bottles of wine but don't because that's dumb. If I had a million I still wouldn't.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#179

Post by _qwfv »

neom wrote: post #93
leadingthenet wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no. Only a small minority of people are on Universal Credit. I don’t get how this follows, at all.

If you take out pensions(~100b gbp), the UK spends (very) approx. 100 billion pounds a year on social assistance. I think OP is suggesting taking that 100 billion and dividing it evenly among the people of the UK vs specifically to the folks who have applied.

Some social assistance programs are probably worth keeping, rather than converting to dollars. Here in the states, for instance, I received regular updates on what to expect as my child developed, what vaccines they should have, what exercise and nutrition needs they have, and when to see a doctor. That info was really useful, much more so than getting mailed a couple bucks.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#180

Post by AlchemistCamp »

gandalfian wrote: post #40

In practice the UK already pays the price for a universal basic income. Most poor people get some sort of tax credit and/or housing benefit. What we don't do is allow people to use it to rise out of poverty. A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits whi…

What you describe very clearly isn't universal.

One of the major selling points of UBI is that it never disincentivizes recipients from earning, saving or investing in their futures.

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