More UBI nonsense...
1) Nobody wants to pay for it
2) It therefore can't be tested (since it won't be paid for)
3) Everyone knows UBI can't work
Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
81–90 of 337 posts
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
> All the arguments about disincentivising work are, IMO just convenient filler Not sure, I've read articles online about companies in the US struggling to hire because people are being paid more by the government. The counter to this is that companies should pay more. Undoubtedly some could afford to do this, but others... the mom & pop outfits... may not be able to.
if a company is unable to pay people a wage with which they are able to live comfortably the company should not exist
Thank you for deciding for me how much should I work for.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
UBI isn't unemployment. You could collect UBI and still work.
You could but no one would because they make more money not working. It equates to basically paying the company to work.
You'd get both the UBI + wage/salary, I'm not quite sure how that translates to "basically paying the company to work".
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have significant sympathy for that base’s point of view. It’s one thing to say that we must provide a social safety net for the most vulnerable, whether temporarily or permanently so. It’s quite another to say “work should be optional and the basics of life should be provided for all [via the work of others]”. I think you’ll find a few people who object to my 2nd paragraph, but extending the argument to the 3rd is…
What do we do when automation reaches most jobs? Create artificial jobs to keep people busy? Now that I think about it, that seems to be what we have been doing for some 30-40 years now. By artificial jobs, I mean jobs that if they disappeared, life would go on pretty much the same. This was in fact quite visible during all the lock-downs. Many many people no longer worked and all the essential and many non-essential…
Probably the same thing we did when agriculture went from 70% of the workforce to under 1.5%. People will adapt to fill new demands.
If it comes to pass at some future time that machines can do all the work and everyone can live a Garden of Eden existence, goods and services will be so cheap due to their natural abundance, that UBI might be feasible but food and essentials might be almost not worth the trouble of metering.
We’re really, really far from that being a reality or concern, IMO.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's the point of the comment. The UK pays the price of UBI without getting the benefits of UBI.
Well, no. Only a small minority of people are on Universal Credit. I don’t get how this follows, at all.
What don't you get? They pay the price of it but don't get it, may as well pay the price of it and get the benefits it provides.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#86In practice the UK already pays the price for a universal basic income. Most poor people get some sort of tax credit and/or housing benefit. What we don't do is allow people to use it to rise out of poverty. A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits whi…
What is outrageous if that the UK prevents you from getting any benefit of you have any savings. It's basically encouraging you to not save any money.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you provide some numbers about people taking benefits instead of working? I'm sure there are a small number, but unemployment in the US is currently within a normal range, so I don't see the impact you claim being possible.
I replied with numbers to a different comment but to summarize a person making $30,000 per year was making the equivalent of $49,000 per year instead during the extra $600 per week. Now it is $300 per week only and someone making $30,000 is now still making about $33,000 per year, again without actually having to work or even look. If they do come back they refuse to work more than about 15 hours per week so they can…
I was looking for estimated numbers of people actually doing this. Your initial comment seemed to imply a very large number of people opting to remain on unemployment. I don't think that's true, given the current unemployment figures are near historical norms.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#88There are already studies on effects of UBI:
https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2016/11/30/long-term-effects-of-short-term-free-cash-guaranteed-minimum-income-experiments/Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#89Interesting how political parties are for or against this pilot project before the results are known. What happened to gathering evidence first and then making up one's mind? There have been other projects in Canada, Finland,Kenya and the Netherlands, all with “positive” results. It is useful to ask what you are trying to achieve with an UBI? * lift people out of poverty? * save money on other social schemes, like pe…
Part of the reason for this lack of interest in the actual outcome is that state benefits are one of the main battlegrounds in the UK's culture war. A lot of the Tories' base comes from the ideological position that poorer people don't deserve to receive aid at the expense (via taxes) of richer people. Whether or not UBI achieves any of its stated aims is totally irrelevant once you see things that way. All the argum…
I agree it's a moral issue, I spent a significant amount of time thinking about the subject and my conclusion is that forcing people to give away their money is immoral, no matter how good the cause you're contributing money to.
After interviewing several people, I reached the conclusion most people don't think at all about the issue and have therefore incredibly inconsistent philosophical positions on issues.
Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, it’s not UBI; it’s unemployment which you lose if you work. If UBI isn’t lost via work (other than via taxes, of course), the same issue does not arise at nearly the same magnitude.
It's a binary choice right now. You either work or you get the enhanced unemployment benefits. With the extra $300 / week benefit, in my state (Ohio), the total benefit works out to a little under $20 / hour. Note that this is a sliding scale and earning that much would require you have at least that high of a wage previously. What you end up seeing is a lot of margin in terms of how much someone is willing to give u…
There are a few instances of being able to collect both right now. I've heard of some people who manage manual labor type companies (painters, tree trimmers, landscapers, etc) that offer to pay laborers cash (which would be in addition to the unemployment benefits) and they cannot get workers. It's like the unemployment is a high enough amount that they'd rather collect just that and not work to earn more. Perhaps there is a magical amount which would convince people to collect benefits and still work to earn additional money.