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Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

nytimes.com

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Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#461

Post by cycomanic »

dguaraglia wrote: post #398
Rebelgecko wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the CDC's original statements on masks (they aren't necessary, they're only effective at preventing the spread of COVID if the wearer has a medical degree, don't wear masks on planes, etc) contributed a lot to the distrust and politicization of mask wearing. When you expect an institution to always be impartial and tell the truth, those sorts of white lies can quickly erode trust.

Meh, I understand your point, but as someone who follows the conspiratorial world passively, I can tell you the whole 'but they told you masks were useless' thing is a post-facto rationalization to gain some common ground with the less conspiratorial people. In reality, the usual suspects were pushing conspiracy theories about the CDC even before they determined masks were useful. A famous conspiracy peddler famously…

This, so much this! I had a friend (who unfortunately has become completely lost to conspiracies) tell me, that the German government was incompetent because they did not take the virus serious enough and that covid was overblown and much less severe than the flu, in the same argument! When I pointed out the contradiction he said "you just think there is a contradiction because you have been indoctrinated by the MSM".

The exact same thing is happening with the mask discussion. The people who say the CDC lied about masks and it was obvious that they help, are the same who strongly refuse to wear them because it's a security theatre. It's completely dishonest argumentation.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#462

Post by [deleted] »

ALittleLight wrote: post #420
mypalmike wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CDC did the opposite in each of these cases, people would find fault in that. "They told the general public to wear masks early on, leading to mask shortages at hospitals!" And "When blood clots were reported in JnJ vaccine they did nothing to protect Americans!"

If they only had the choice to do one of two diametric opposite actions you might have a point. Of course, in reality, there is no such limitation. If the CDC had told the public masks work and research shows home made, cotton, or surgical masks are significantly better than nothing and we need to get our N95's to our medical frontline... Or, you know, been prepared with enough masks for medical frontline people. Doi…

[deleted]

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#463

Post by selimthegrim »

walrus01 wrote: post #433
andreilys wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDC/surgeon general recommended not wearing masks at the beginning of the pandemic, while Silicon Valley was way ahead of the curve (meanwhile hit pieces were posted by journalists with an axe to grind saying they we’re overreacting). So yes it has lost its credibility.

They specifically recommended not wearing N95 masks, which were very scarce and in limited supply at the beginning of the pandemic. With the goal of maintaining the very limited supply for medical personnel, while cargo planes moved around the globe and production ramped up.

N95s also need to be vacuum fit IIRC for max efficacy

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#464

Post by refurb »

estaseuropano wrote: post #269
livinginfear wrote: post #221

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

As a European I'm quite surprised how deep the conspiracy theories and suspicions against the state go in the US. You don't need tp take everything at face value, but to be so suspicious of essential institutions like the CDC seems crazy to me. Except for a vocal but tiny minority there's a lot of trust in the institutions of the EU and (Western) Europe, where citizrns at most worry about incompetence, not malicious…

I find that surprising.

It's pretty clear the EU health regulatory agencies aren't much better.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

500 to 2000 people died in France because the regulatory authorities choose to ignore multiple warning signs the drug has issues.

Maybe you shouldn't be so trusting?

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#465

Post by carlmr »

em500 wrote: post #431
bonzini wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese scientists cottoned on to this very early China didn't even admit human to human transmission until mid January. They haven't even admitted when the outbreak started, which almost certainly wasn't November 2019 since there are suspect cases in Europe already at the beginning of December, of people that had never been in Wuhan.

> there are suspect cases in Europe already at the beginning of December, of people that had never been in Wuhan. If this is true, then it's not a given that COVID-19 even originated in China.

It's not a given, but it's also not a given that it originated in Europe or anywhere else for that matter. Plane travel makes it possible for a virus to be anywhere in the world on the same day.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#466

Post by shlant »

livinginfear wrote: post #221

I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID. There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front…

The NSA and FBI are built around secrecy and preventing leaks. Their opaqueness is a huge part of their advantage. They keep information from the general public as a rule. Everyone involved is vetted and knows the punishment for insubordination.

The CDC is for the benefit of the public. Peoples trust in them is needed in order to be effective. It is pretty transparent in that you can usually look at the data they are using to support their guidelines. If they were keeping something secret the chance of a leak is much greater and there is data from other countries that can be used to corroborate their conclusions.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#467

Post by sharken »

mlyle wrote: post #393
x3iv130f wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't blame the professionals for getting things wrong on this. My personal feeling is that it was hard to know if masks worked for the general populace before Covid-19. There are so many confounding variables that it very difficult to study masks from a public health side. The best approximation was studies of health professionals in hospitals or clinics which doesn't exactly translate for a multitude of reasons.

To be honest, we still don't really know if masks work. They look like they probably do something, but the evidence is weak and the effect size small. It's totally worth it to bend an exponential function. But the individual benefit from mask wearing in any given interaction is negligible.

Which leads to huge arguments which really benefits nobody as we just establish that we disagree.

Common sense seems to say that masks make s difference, but if that is the strongest argument, then why not let people decide for themselves using common sense.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#468

Post by vmception »

dguaraglia wrote: post #418
vmception wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cant wait for the businesses that demand masks to be disconnected from the ability to operate by market pressures Most brick and mortar was barely viable during the best market in history so all we gotta do is wait! And also not go to them lol have fun with that gofundme

So you are salivating at the idea that businesses that cared for their employees' safety go under just because you disagree with them politically. Very nice.

Disagreed politically? I’m talking about major markets like California opening up, not whatever happens already in Georgia or Florida. So I think these more risk averse jurisdictions will also have a few businesses that try to maintain independent restrictions without support from the state, and I think they will have lost tolerance from their entire population or market base by then (a few weeks from now). This is not political, as the Federal government and the state government will be of the same political leaning. Nice try though.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#469

Post by bourgwaletariat »

dimator wrote: post #384
andreilys wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDC/surgeon general recommended not wearing masks at the beginning of the pandemic, while Silicon Valley was way ahead of the curve (meanwhile hit pieces were posted by journalists with an axe to grind saying they we’re overreacting). So yes it has lost its credibility.

This is the citation I found for this claim: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/06/the-cdc-now-recommend... Overall, science is a process. If research came out that changed the recommendations, well, that's how science works. This is no different in my mind than the gradual change in the recommendations towards cigarette smoking over the decades, only in this case it played out over weeks and months (that article wa…

Do you actually remember this in real time? Do you remember at the beginning when everyone was wondering what to do and they said wear a mask and then they said not wear a mask and everyone around you was like, "What?? What is going on??"

And then a short while later they said wear a mask again. These things have real world ramifications. You can't just point to a snopes a year later and retain the context within which this trust destroying episode went down.

People have memories. They felt the frustration. They felt the betrayal.

And they have yet to recover from that. To dismiss that very real feeling of betrayal as "well, this is what snopes says" is rewriting history.

And, all of that comes on the heels of big tobacco, DDT, thalidomide, BPA, climate change, and then the new climate change, big pharma with their oxycontin and big medicine fleecing Americans and they won't even discuss medicare for all and we have to protect corporate profits over saving humanity?? Seriously??

And you dismiss all that with "science is a process."

Except the process has been completely dismissed as well. Science created the process that takes years to approve a new vaccine, all of that has been completely dismissed exactly when a brand new technology for creating vaccines has been created.

No part of this is science. This is politics. Period. 8 Months ago Kamala Harris herself said she would NOT get Trump's Vaccine.

And so now it's somehow a different vaccine that we should all get? Now folks who don't want to get Biden's vaccine are science deniers?

This. is. not. science.

This is politics and a lot of people are refusing to get the vaccine purely because it's politics and NOT science.

Did you watch Fauci get destroyed up there this week? He's a liar. Period.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#470

Post by noahtallen »

Simulacra wrote: post #246

I wish we could return to a time when people didn't care if you wore a mask or not, and EVERYTHING was not so politicized.

> people didn't care if you wore a mask or not

I mean, imagine it was a more simple situation. What if we knew for a fact that if you wore a mask when you had the flu, then you wouldn’t spread it. In my opinion, it would be fantastic to have a healthy social expectation for an individual to limit their infectiousness while sick, instead of just going to work or school and blatantly spreading the flu. That would prevent a lot of sickness and even death! Having the flu sucks.

COVID is similar, but it’s not as easy because it’s not clear when you could be spreading anything. COVID’s a sleeper, and sometimes it spreads with no symptoms. Super dangerous, eh? That’s why it makes sense to extend that first, simpler example so that we can be more cautious as a society towards something which has caused more than three million human beings to be terminated. Not only does it make sense, but I’d argue it’s even the moral option to be cautious until we can be more confident of our society’s combined immunity towards the disease.

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