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‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

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Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#71

Post by ivraatiems »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #58
ivraatiems wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the mob you mean "the people who would have to work with him"?

By mob I mean people, who, in that order: 1. Learn there is a new hire 2. their first course of action is to scour his internet history for things to be offended by 3. find something 4. get a lynch mob going 5. complain to HR 6. get guy fired 7. start a party

This man was a public figure with an NYT bestselling book who, based on evidence elsewhere in this post's comments, publicly and privately harassed multiple women over years.

Is it possible people already knew of him prior to his hiring?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#72

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

williamsmj wrote: post #50
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

Can he do the job? Well, the job included managing people from groups he has publicly and repeatedly shown contempt for, and a bunch of people he'd be managing said that they wanted him fired. So I suspect the answer is no, if we're boiling this down a purely meritocratic question, he literally cannot do the job.

How so? I had some bad managers before and this guy, who I never listened to before until now ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE0pIKV5Mlc ) sounds ridiculously less bad than some of those managers. Part of it is because, it does not matter that manager thinks you a are worth less than nothing. Not to the real owners anyway. What matters is whether they deliver on what is needed.

Everything else is noise.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#73

Post by cudgy »

MyHypatia wrote: post #48
ivraatiems wrote: post #11

I remember trying to read Chaos Monkeys because it sounded up my alley, and stopping a few chapters in because the author's tone, to be frank, made me think he was at least pretentious and at worst a psychopath. I'm not sure that's worth a firing from Apple, but based on the book, Popehat's rule of assholes* might be in play here. * Popehat's rule of assholes: From Popehat, https://twitter.com/popehat , roughly stati…

If the company had let him stay, how should it respond to female employees who bring up "Hey, this person wrote that women are useless baggage and he's going to evaluate me, determine my salary, and career opportunities here. Why should I stay?" Should all the women just quit? What's the point in staying? If this were written about men instead, I don't think male employees would stick around to watch their compensati…

How do you then handle a worker that claims white men are inherently racist? Or a worker that posts red-headed men are ugly and stupid? Or a worker that claims almost ex-military people are ignorant and violent?

Do all workers who are men and ex-military have the right to demand their removal?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#74

Post by williamsmj »

jxramos wrote: post #62
umvi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caltech cancelled Robert Millikan (the founder), so it wouldn't be unprecedented for Apple to cancel its founder(s) as well.

wow you serious. What was Millikan's unforgivable sin?

Well, he promoted and personally supported the forced sterilization of people. And he was, even by the standards of the time, a HUGE racist. Just some little stuff, no big deal. You can't say anything these days!

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#75

Post by williamsmj »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #72
williamsmj wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can he do the job? Well, the job included managing people from groups he has publicly and repeatedly shown contempt for, and a bunch of people he'd be managing said that they wanted him fired. So I suspect the answer is no, if we're boiling this down a purely meritocratic question, he literally cannot do the job.

How so? I had some bad managers before and this guy, who I never listened to before until now ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE0pIKV5Mlc ) sounds ridiculously less bad than some of those managers. Part of it is because, it does not matter that manager thinks you a are worth less than nothing. Not to the real owners anyway. What matters is whether they deliver on what is needed. Everything else is noise.

I'm sorry you have such low standards.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#76

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

dillondoyle wrote: post #54
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

Because it effects those around him and the business itself. Especially women who are already disadvantaged by inequalities in tech. You can take the your viewpoint to the extreme to prove a point: yeah that Himmler guy knows how to engineer and plan. all that matters right? One's actions affect others, and even disregarding the (evidently not agreed upon fact) that we should actively be combating racism, misogyny, d…

Right? And yet we are perfectly fine mandating social water cooler socializing despite effectively them reducing productivity. This has nothing to do with productivity.

It is a power play. Pure and simple.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#77

Post by georgewsinger »

williamsmj wrote: post #64
georgewsinger wrote: post #51

Here's a video of Antonio García Martínez actually explaining his book (dated 4 years ago): https://youtu.be/KE0pIKV5Mlc The YouTube comments on this video seem stuck in time (4 years ago) before our current "PC" era. They're largely positive and have nothing to do with political commentary; e.g. the top two comments: > This was one of the best interviews I have heard from TWIST. I've never listened to a single borin…

"Though I haven't read his work ... how many people in the latest cancel mob will take the time to read his book"?

Nice dunk, except I'm not accusing someone of heresy/trying to get them fired.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#78

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

readonthegoapp wrote: post #53
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

This is a straight up sexist remark. If part of the job is showing respect to all your coworkers, regardless of sex, then it seems obvious he is incapable. Maybe his beliefs do not translate at all into his behavior, but I doubt it.

How so? Is it racist too? Please help me out here.

I am trying to be reasonable about it, but the reaction to my simple statement created ridiculous level of response I did not expect so I expect to defend it.

I repeat.

The only thing that matters is whether this person can do their job.

How does that make me sexist?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#79

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

williamsmj wrote: post #69
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would a Google search have revealed? As far as I can tell ("antonio garcia martinez before:2021"), neither he nor his book faced any significant controversy until today.

Here he is being told to his face that his writing is "very misogynistic" by Kara Swisher in 2016: https://www.vox.com/2016/8/9/12415696/antonio-garcia-martine... . This wasn't a secret, which is why it was so easy for these Apple employees to assemble a lot of quotes at short notice.

It certainly wasn't a secret that he wrote the book! But "very misogynistic" is only one part of a long and not particularly hostile interview. If you stumbled upon this interview without the benefit of today's context, would you really be able to conclude the guy's permanently unemployable?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#80

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

williamsmj wrote: post #67
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree I've never heard of the guy, and that these quotes are pretty offensive. But had you heard of him before today? That's the "cancel culture" concern here - his status as a well-known offensive figure appears to have been created from scratch between lunchtime and now.

Yes, I had heard of him, and presumably so had the Apple employees who assembled a letter that quotes him extensively: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/12/22432909/apple-petition-h... .

I... do not see why we would presume that.
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