Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#231

Post by chuck202 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:38 AM UTC

hosh wrote: post #185

perl4ever wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Being on the spectrum I don't think that is why you made a suboptimal choice; I think that's why you incorrectly think you made a suboptimal choice. They might regret losing you, but that doesn't mean that good things would have happened if you tried to apply leverage before. The act of trying to force someone to do something, whether by (implied) threat, logic, emotional manipulation, or whatever, can mortally woun…

Also, the counter-offer to stay is not always that great either: 1. The underlying problem was still there — the management did not value your work to have a thoughtful policy that worked for both you and your employer. Rather than working with you, they chose an adversarial approach. 2. If you had gone back, they now know you can leave, so they will be looking to replace you as soon as they can, possibly even have y…

> 4. It is easier to get hired while you still have a job than while you do not.

I'm curious about the reasoning behind this opinion. As someone outside of the US (UK), I've interviewed a few people who were unemployed at the time but with a good level of experience and track record. People deciding to take some time off to do their own thing has never bothered me, if they can afford it then I think everyone deserves a sabbatical option.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#232

Post by colek42 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:46 AM UTC

jonathanfoster wrote: post #101

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

@ineptech knows what he's talking about. Follow this advice. Here are some more ideas to consider. Source: 18+ years of experience as an engineer, manager, and director. The theme is make your manager's life easy and he/she will do whatever they can to help you out. Depending upon the size of your company, your manager may have more or less discretion with WFH. Whatever you do, don't put him/her into a corner with an…

Don't advise "Just Do It" I've done this before and it causes a lot of personal stress.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#233

Post by dontwannabe » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:49 AM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #2

I would like to know as well. Depending on the size of the company it may be easier to get special treatment. We’ve heard from top-down that we need to be back in the office and there’s been no special treatment given other than some allusions to a hybrid workweek compromise. The only way I think it would be possible at a large company would be to engage in some sort of wfh soft-strike collectively. With enough emplo…

Thanks for making JP Morgan's stance on WFH. I am thinking of switching jobs and this is helpful information.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#234

Post by varispeed » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

It's very simple - if they want you back, and you don't want to go back, then tell them so. I am only willing to agree to max 2 days in office a month. The moment they start to ask for me to come in more than that I'll post my resignation.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#235

Post by kristiandupont » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:53 AM UTC

borski wrote: post #197

StavrosK wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you know they're lying?

Most people really aren’t very good liars.

I was tempted to ask: "how do you know?", but I will rather just state that I think you are wrong. In fact, I think most people are excellent liars, especially if lying about something they don't consider to be morally wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#236

Post by InvertedRhodium » Wed, May 12, 2021, 10:55 AM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #224

scotty79 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.

First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate any…

By that logic, does the concept of dictator even exist? Even under threat of torture and death you can refuse to do or say whatever is being demanded of you - and if you can be refused then are you really a dictator?

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#237

Post by caffeine » Wed, May 12, 2021, 11:05 AM UTC

Like every negotiation it comes down to leverage (even though you wont USE the leverage, you cant negotiate unless you have it), and pain points.

So:

1. Start with doing recon. Ask your manager how has remote been? What does his boss think? How has the company done overall? What's been frustrating? Knowing the pain points means you can later find concessions that are cheap to you but vital to them.

2. Get a fulky remote job offer from someone else. Doesn't have to be a job you love but needs to be a real option. Now you have leverage.

3. Now you are ready to begin the process - "if I wanted to stay fully remote, what would we do to make that work?"

4. When you meet resistance, try to make a small concession along one of the pain points you identified earlier ("I'm happy to commit to the same office hours as everyone else Tues-Thurs", "I've identified a reasonable meeting wall setup for my house", "I will come in 1 week a month to make sure we all stay bonded as a team"). Make sure it's something you dont mind conceding and it addresses their hottest pain point.

5. Always remain upbeat, and amicable during negotiations. This is a team effort to accomplish the goal of keeping you happy and productive at this company.

6. Dont mention the other job offer unless you really need to, or if they are dragging their feet. "I really want to remain here and work remotely, but this other fully remote job offer expires soon."

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#238

Post by scotty79 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 11:08 AM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #224

scotty79 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.

First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate any…

I'm not saying employer cannot decide.

I'm just saying that statement "everything is a negotiation" is not true. Because if you refuse to participate in any bargaining then there's no negotiation. Just a statement (from one side) and decision (from the other).

I see you are mostly opposed to the word dictate because you understand it as employee dictating what company will do. And he's obviously not capable of that.

The word dictate used by OP was about dictating the terms of decision they have to make, not dictating what the decision should be.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#239

Post by account42 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 11:37 AM UTC

lmilcin wrote: post #224

scotty79 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate anything. It's not a negotiation if there's no option for the employer to get any concessions from you and give you less than what you demand. So not everything is a negotiation. Sometimes it's just offer and decission.

First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate any…

You can dictate that you will be working from home even if your current employer still has the choice that you will not be working for them.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#240

Post by lmilcin » Wed, May 12, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

account42 wrote: post #239

lmilcin wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, the only time there is no negotiation is if you don't have a choice. Will the company fold if you leave it? I have personally been in this situation and even then I have negotiated because the owners were only able to put so much money and above that they would prefer to just cut their losses and dissolve the company. > If you can leave the next day there's no much room for the employer to negotiate any…

You can dictate that you will be working from home even if your current employer still has the choice that you will not be working for them.

Again, you are not dictating if it is up to them to decide whether they accept it or not.

I am not native English speaker, but the dictionaries are rather precise that authority is a necessary ingredient of being able to dictate something.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dictate

"to give orders, or tell someone exactly what they must do, with total authority"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictate

"to issue as an order; to impose, pronounce, or specify authoritatively"

If you don't have authority over the company you can still think you are dictating, but that's not how the company views it.

The company view is "are you too much of a problem for the benefit of keeping you?" not "John said it so we must do it because he has authority around here".