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"The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

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Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#81

Post by hugh3 »

chollida1 wrote: post #75
noonespecial wrote: post #9

“The biggest problem,” says Ury, “is that ordinary citizens cannot afford to hire a lawyer. The bread and butter of small firm practices are criminal defense work, wills and trusts, leases, closings and divorces. Yet in Connecticut, 80 to 85 percent of divorces have a self-represented party because most families can’t afford to hire one lawyer, let alone two. Nearly 90 percent of criminal cases are self-represented o…

> I'd call that a 100%, red-line, sirens-blaring, system failure. "Less people are hiring us for $500/hour! What shall we do?" might not be the right question. "Why did anyone ever do so in the first place?" might be closer. I've heard the reason described as such: "People will pay the highest possible amount they can afford for things like doctors and lawyers because if there is a screw up they die or go to jail. Wh…

This explains some of it. It doesn't explain why I need to pay $500 an hour (well, $300 an hour) to get a lawyer to look over the contract when I buy a house. I'm not too concerned about having the best possible lawyer in that case -- as long as I have a vaguely competent lawyer (the same way I want, say, a vaguely competent taxi driver or a vaguely competent waiter) I should be fine.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#82

Post by jdp23 »

sunchild wrote: post #57
127001brewer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can provide better service than ever before, because I have better tools at my disposal. Can you go into more detail about the tools you use? This seems like a good opportunity (as a software product) for selling to smaller firms.

I typically represent customers in contract negotiations with their upstream suppliers. That means I do lots of deals with many of the same names on the other side of the table, again and again (Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, etc.) After over a decade of doing this, I notice that my clients really want the answer to two questions: 1. What are the market standard terms for the transaction? 2. What did we (i.e., the client) a…

Great comments, thanks so much for taking the time to share!

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#83

Post by joshuaheard »

lhnn wrote: post #80
Bobby_Tables wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you define "help". The reason there are so many unemployed JDs is that there are too many lawyers, and allowing people who didn't go to law school to take bar exams would make that problem even worse. On the other hand, if people could become lawyers without taking on $100,000 in not-dischargeable-under-any-circumstances debt, they would be able to make a living at a much more reasonable salary than is…

High barrier to entry and costs are part of the cause of the problem: If more people were allowed to qualify to practice, lowering rates and expanding the search for a better business model, the legal industry would be more flexible, cheaper, and accessible for the public.

That's a good point. In law school, a whole year was spent taking classes on subjects I would never use, like criminal and family law.

Maybe they should break down the legal education to allow a degree in a certain topic and limit the law license to that.

Or, allow certifications in certain topics that non-lawyers could receive, like divorce.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#84

Post by mnutt »

Bobby_Tables wrote: post #58
chopsueyar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would allowing non-JD degree holders to take the bar help?

Depends on how you define "help". The reason there are so many unemployed JDs is that there are too many lawyers, and allowing people who didn't go to law school to take bar exams would make that problem even worse. On the other hand, if people could become lawyers without taking on $100,000 in not-dischargeable-under-any-circumstances debt, they would be able to make a living at a much more reasonable salary than is…

Somehow I think you'd get into a pretty big fight with the New York law schools. Not to mention how much it would suck to have taken on $100,000 in not-dischargeable-under-any-circumstances debt and then not be able to get a job because you aren't allowed to take the bar. How would this help anything?

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#85

Post by bchjam »

sunchild wrote: post #64
VanL wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing this with patents. Google "Killing patents with Python" if you want to see the presentation.

Shoot me an email. I didn't find your presentation. I did find a Yahoo Answers on "Can a 4 foot long ball python kill a 4 lb. kitten?"

you need to keep the quotes in the search. doing that I found this link

http://topsy.com/pycon.blip.tv/file/4879824/?allow_lang=en

which then links to a video of the presentation (watching it now)

http://blip.tv/pycon-us-videos-2009-2010-2011/pycon-2011-how...

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#86

Post by chollida1 »

hugh3 wrote: post #81
chollida1 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd call that a 100%, red-line, sirens-blaring, system failure. "Less people are hiring us for $500/hour! What shall we do?" might not be the right question. "Why did anyone ever do so in the first place?" might be closer. I've heard the reason described as such: "People will pay the highest possible amount they can afford for things like doctors and lawyers because if there is a screw up they die or go to jail. Wh…

This explains some of it. It doesn't explain why I need to pay $500 an hour (well, $300 an hour) to get a lawyer to look over the contract when I buy a house. I'm not too concerned about having the best possible lawyer in that case -- as long as I have a vaguely competent lawyer (the same way I want, say, a vaguely competent taxi driver or a vaguely competent waiter) I should be fine.

> It doesn't explain why I need to pay $500 an hour (well, $300 an hour) to get a lawyer to look over the contract when I buy a house.

Agreed. I paid $75/hour to get a lawyer to do the work when we bought our house. I'm not sure why you chose to pay someone that much. Only you can answer that:)

I'm Canadian, living in a large city so i don't think location factors into the lawyers fee's.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#87

Post by ahi »

ahi wrote: post #74

JACK CADE. Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven half-penny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king,- as king I will be,- ALL. God save your majesty! JACK CADE. I thank you, good people:…

I wonder, not relevant enough or is the liberal arts education of hackernews so lacking we don't know Shakespeare when we see it?

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#88

Post by a3camero »

etherael wrote: post #49
a3camero wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look into the civil code system of law. It might appeal to you more than the English-derived system that I suspect you live under. Check out the Quebec Civil Code: http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gouv.qc.ca/dynamicSearch/te... (ignore the bizarre English translations of some concepts...).

You are correct, I currently live under a common law derived system, and my research into actually translating a legal system to code has led me to believe that the best place to start would be a civil law based system, though I had been mostly looking into scandinavian countries prior to this link. Thanks for that, just to be clear though, is civil code specific to Quebec or is it all of Canada on a civil law derive…

The Civil Code is just in Quebec. That's because that region of the country was originally owned by France and centuries later it's still French-speaking and uses a France-derived legal system for all but criminal matters.

There are many English speakers in Quebec (one of Canada's top law schools is located in the largest city in Quebec, which is known for being English-speaking...) and so you should be able to find a lot more materials in English than Scandinavian countries but I wouldn't know.

You're likely already aware of it but Louisiana also has the historical France link and civil code connection but I know much less about how that system works.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#89

Post by a3camero »

maxxxxx wrote: post #60
a3camero wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's lawyer: lawyers have very high fixed costs due to insurance + bar fees. In Ontario they're about $6k a year. Database subscriptions are also very pricey. The expenses are considerably higher than that associated with programming.

Somehow I doubt that these fixed costs justify $250/hr vs $100/hr. But I am not 100% sure.

True, but there are a number of other costs associated with being a lawyer. Various professional courses you're required to do in some jurisdictions and clothes that make you look like a lawyer instead of a programmer. Carrying costs of your $125k + living expenses education on top of undergrad @ $X...

I'm with you, but it is an expensive profession.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#90

Post by eru »

sethg wrote: post #47
jgfoot wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there are some laws that can kind of be represented as computer code (for example, TurboTax captures a good portion of the tax code, and programming a 55 mph speed limit into a car shouldn't be hard) for the most part the law acts as a system for delegating to judges limited authority to exercise discretion. Ultimately, the decisions are made through that discretion, and they aren't entirely predictable. If…

How much of this is a characteristic of law, in general, and how much of this is a characteristic of the English common-law tradition? In a civil-law system where laws and regulations are more minutely detailed, and judges have less discretion, would law-as-computer code be more feasible?

Perhaps _more_ feasible, but not feasible enough. In German law schools they make it sound as if there's only one legal interpretation for every case, but actually there are often competing ones.

Also, even if the legal situation is clear, there's still discretion involved to decide which claim ranks higher. E.g. Free Speech versus (something like) Right to Privacy in the case you can see at http://lexetius.com/1999,2324 . (If you don't speak German, Google translate might be good enough.)

To me the practice of common law and civil law seem more similar than their theory.

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