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"The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

abajournal.com

31–40 of 113 posts

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is not shrinking; the problem is access to justice for ordinary people who cannot afford $500 an hour. Also, perverse incentives like "No win, no fee" encourage settlements and litigation without helping those who have been genuinely wronged or have an actual case that needs to go to trial.

How does no-win-no-fee do that? If you haven't been genuinely wronged and don't have an actual case that needs to go to trial, you can't realistically expect to win, so NWNF doesn't make much difference. What NWNF is supposed to do is to make it possible for the not-rich to afford to defend themselves when wronged (either by taking legal action, or by declining to settle unfavourably when threatened with legal action…

If you haven't been genuinely wronged and don't have an actual case that needs to go to trial, you can't realistically expect to win

The premise that only deserving cases win isn't self-evident to me. With increasing awards and settlements, the expected value of a spurious case might be quite high.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#32
post #10

What would be really nice is if law was machine-readable (and interpretable). But that would probably require computers being able to understand language.

What's an interesting segue to this is that fundamentally the "language understanding" issues are mostly red herrings. The gold standard within the legal profession we are constantly led to believe is to pursue a standard of objective fairness and justice which would be better defined by deterministic, logical languages like programming languages rather than fuzzy, broad languages like English.

It is far, far easier to have laws written in code and execute test cases based on those laws before even investing any capital into a venture which may require edge cases of a given law, rather than the current scenario of hemming and hawing around a fundamentally subjective and fuzzy area and eventually subjecting your endeavour to the rigors of being a legal "test case" consisting of much ado about nothing and the outcome is as close to random as anything else.

When you reduce the legal profession to coding and writing test cases though, hell will freeze over the next day. Such a politically powerful faction will never allow themselves to be marginalised in this way, even if they claim to desperately be striving for exactly the kind of scenarios that this would allow; universal access to a completely objective justice system with etc etc etc. The extent to which this is actually impossible is somewhat depressing because it's something of an expose on the hypocrisy implicit in the claims of the legal system to actually serve the public, rather than itself.

But hey, that's life. If it ever does happen my wager is it will be because it is forced on them through market forces, the public at large simply uses alternatives venues for mediation and the legal system is forced to compete with it. I predict much artificial legal protection to prevent this from happening before it actually comes to pass, though.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#33

Khan Academy Law School?

Law School doesn't really teach what lawyers need to practice law. I've been tempted to do some videos on open source compliance, basics of contract negotiations, etc. but I just don't have enough time to do everything I want to! Maybe if someone else wants to collaborate, I would make it more of a priority.

Those would be extremely useful, thanks for thinking about them.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#35

I live and breathe this topic. After 12 years at big law firms in NYC, myself and a collection of our best and brightest broke off and founded our own firms (mine in NYC, another in London). This is actually very relevant to the HN community, because it's all about how to run a business. The problem with legal services begins and ends with poor business practices. Law firms are addicted to covering their own lack of…

I can provide better service than ever before, because I have better tools at my disposal.

Can you go into more detail about the tools you use?

This seems like a good opportunity (as a software product) for selling to smaller firms.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is not shrinking; the problem is access to justice for ordinary people who cannot afford $500 an hour. Also, perverse incentives like "No win, no fee" encourage settlements and litigation without helping those who have been genuinely wronged or have an actual case that needs to go to trial.

How does no-win-no-fee do that? If you haven't been genuinely wronged and don't have an actual case that needs to go to trial, you can't realistically expect to win, so NWNF doesn't make much difference. What NWNF is supposed to do is to make it possible for the not-rich to afford to defend themselves when wronged (either by taking legal action, or by declining to settle unfavourably when threatened with legal action…

If NWNF considers a settlement a win, and it is a much easier win than going all the way to court. Then there is a strong incentive to take on a case and push the settlement.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#37
post #30

“The biggest problem,” says Ury, “is that ordinary citizens cannot afford to hire a lawyer. The bread and butter of small firm practices are criminal defense work, wills and trusts, leases, closings and divorces. Yet in Connecticut, 80 to 85 percent of divorces have a self-represented party because most families can’t afford to hire one lawyer, let alone two. Nearly 90 percent of criminal cases are self-represented o…

It's not just a lawyer failure, but a legal system collapse. People are being denied justice. The lawyers themselves are not necessarily to blame. There are two or three interlinked aspects: 1. The growth in regulations, which draws away limited legal resources toward big companies, leaving less (or higher fees) for criminal or civil defense 2. The growth in criminal prosecution of victimless crimes and especially ra…

> It's not just a lawyer failure, but a legal system collapse. People are being denied justice.

Very true:

"The American justice system favors the educated, the corporations, and the rich, and takes unfair advantage of the uneducated, the private citizen, and the poor. It would seem that almost any legal entanglement can be resolved through the judicious application of money, while almost any tussle with the law can result in financial penalties and even imprisonment for those who are forced to rely on public defenders. Many people naïvely believe that a criminal is someone who commits a criminal act. This is not true, at least not in the American system of justice. Here, a criminal is someone who has been accused of committing a criminal act, tried for it, and found guilty. Whether or not that person has in fact committed the act is immaterial: witnesses may lie, evidence can be fabricated, juries can be manipulated. A person who has committed a criminal act but has not been tried for it, or has been tried and exonerated, is not a criminal, and for anyone to call him a criminal is libelous. It therefore follows that, within the American justice system, committing a crime and getting away with it is substantially identical to not committing a crime at all. Wealthy clients have lawyers who are constantly testing and, whenever possible, expanding the bounds of legality. Corporations have entire armies of lawyers, and can almost always win against individuals. Furthermore, corporations use their political influence to promote the use of binding arbitration, which favors them, as the way to resolve disputes. This state of affairs makes it hopelessly naïve for anyone to confuse legality with morality, ethics, or justice. You should always behave in a legal manner, but this will not necessarily save you from going to jail. In what manner you choose to behave legally is between you and your conscience, God, or lawyer, if you happen to have one, and may or may not have anything to do with obeying laws. Legality is a property of the justice system, while justice is an ancient virtue. This distinction is lost on very few people: most people possess a sense of justice, and, separate from it, an understanding of what is legal, and what they they can get away with. The U.S. legal system, as it stands, is a luxury, not a necessity. It is good to those who can afford it, and bad for those who cannot. As ever-increasing numbers of people find that they cannot pay what it takes to secure a good outcome for themselves, they will start to see it not as a system of justice, but as a tool of oppression, and will learn to avoid it rather than to look to it for help. As oppression becomes the norm, at some point the pretense to serving justice will be dispensed with in favor of a much simpler, efficient, streamlined system of social control, perhaps one based on martial law. People have been known to get along quite happily without written law, lawyers, courts, or jails. Societies always evolve an idea of what is forbidden, and find ways to punish those who transgress. In the absence of an official system of justice, people generally become much more careful around each other, because running afoul of someone may lead to a duel or give rise to a vendetta, and because, in the absence of jails, punishments tend become draconian, coming to include dispossession, banishment, and even death, which are all intended to deter and to neutralize rather than to punish. When disputes do arise, lay mediators or councils may be appealed to, to help resolve them. The transition to a lower-energy system of jurisprudence will no doubt be quite tumultuous, but there is something we can be sure of: many laws will become unenforceable at its very outset. This development, given our definition of what is criminal, will de facto decriminalize many types of behavior, opening new, relatively safe avenues of legal behavior for multitudes of people, creating new opportunities for the wise, and further tempting the evil and the foolish. As a safety precaution, you might want to distance yourself from the legal system, and, to the extent that this is possible, find your own justice. As an exercise, examine each of your relationships that is based on a contract, lease, deed, license, promissory note, or other legal instrument, and look for ways to replace it with relationships that are based on trust, mutual respect, and common interest. Think of ways to make these relationships work within the context of friendships and familial ties. To protect yourself from getting savaged by the justice system as it degenerates into oppression, try to weave a thick web of informal interdependency all around you, where any conflict or disagreement can be extinguished by drawing in more and more interested parties, all of them eager to resolve it peaceably, and none of them willing to let it escalate beyond their midst. Struggle for impartiality when attempting to mediate disputes, and be guided by your wisdom and your sense of justice rather than by laws, rules, or precedents, which offer poor guidance in changing times."

- From "Thriving in the Age of Collapse" by Dmitry Orlov (https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dtxqwqr_19gjjvp8)

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd be a neat trick. Not even the humans can understand legal language. Perhaps the singularity begins with an expert system suddenly grokking the entirety of law, resolving the paradoxes and contradictions, and then suing all humanity for infringement. Hard-takeoff trolling...

If that isn't already a science fiction short story, it should be.

Asimov's "I, Robot" stories cover this territory well. The robots must follow three laws, which are simple enough on their surface, but in application prove tough to predict. The humans begin to see that the laws have unintended and undesirable consequences.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#39
post #10

What would be really nice is if law was machine-readable (and interpretable). But that would probably require computers being able to understand language.

What's an interesting segue to this is that fundamentally the "language understanding" issues are mostly red herrings. The gold standard within the legal profession we are constantly led to believe is to pursue a standard of objective fairness and justice which would be better defined by deterministic, logical languages like programming languages rather than fuzzy, broad languages like English. It is far, far easier…

Although there are some laws that can kind of be represented as computer code (for example, TurboTax captures a good portion of the tax code, and programming a 55 mph speed limit into a car shouldn't be hard) for the most part the law acts as a system for delegating to judges limited authority to exercise discretion. Ultimately, the decisions are made through that discretion, and they aren't entirely predictable. If you haven't already, take 30 minutes and read Oliver Wendell Holmes' "The Path of the Law" and see if you still think the only obstacle to mechanizing the law is the political power of the legal profession. http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2373

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#40

“The biggest problem,” says Ury, “is that ordinary citizens cannot afford to hire a lawyer. The bread and butter of small firm practices are criminal defense work, wills and trusts, leases, closings and divorces. Yet in Connecticut, 80 to 85 percent of divorces have a self-represented party because most families can’t afford to hire one lawyer, let alone two. Nearly 90 percent of criminal cases are self-represented o…

""Why did anyone ever do so in the first place?" might be closer."

I'm interpreting this as "why would we need lawyers, we did fine without them", but that is very untrue. In the past there simply was much less rule of law, with the cronyism and systemic state of fear of citizens that follows from it; as is still the case in most of the Third World and especially in places like China and Russia. But to a lesser degree also in Westerns countries in Europe and the US, and especially in places and/or social strata that don't trust the legal system, or where those who are supposed to uphold the law are corrupt.

Lawyers may seem to be a net tax on the system, and the rule of law could theoretically exist without lawyers, true; but history has proven that systems where people have access to specialists who can fight for their rights are more efficient and, more importantly, better to live in than others.

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