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"The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

abajournal.com

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Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#71

Post by thwarted »

thret wrote: post #13
noonespecial wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd be a neat trick. Not even the humans can understand legal language. Perhaps the singularity begins with an expert system suddenly grokking the entirety of law, resolving the paradoxes and contradictions, and then suing all humanity for infringement. Hard-takeoff trolling...

If that isn't already a science fiction short story, it should be.

I just recently finished Accelerando, where corporations are composed of and contracts are carried out by software agents (the story starts out with them just being expert systems). It's not the main topic, but a major supporting background.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#72

Post by VanL »

sunchild wrote: post #24
swampthing wrote: post #14

This article is spot-on (I'm one of the few on HN that have worked as an attorney in biglaw). One theme it barely touched is that, like any other technology, legal innovations inevitably get commoditized. Fundamentally, law firms have been unable to properly adjust to this commoditization due to a lack of technology (outsourcing is a short term solution). The only solutions they come up with are to cut overhead costs…

Exactly! What I've learned, though, is that there is always a need for a human being at the end of the process. That's where lawyers will always be needed: to exercise nuanced judgment that just cannot be systematized (yet). The trick is to be a lawyer who can work as part of a bigger process that includes smart technologies and less expensive (and perhaps, less skilled) labor.

This is right - there is always a need for humans at the end of the process. The problem is, though, that in traditional law firms many things that can be done by computers are done by humans. This has a couple of effects:

1. Soul-sucking work. Want to know why so many lawyers hate what they do? Because they are doing stuff that computers can do better and faster. It kills initiative, creativity, and any sense of joy.

2. Higher bills for clients. This is all done by the billable hour, so having humans do lots of soul-sucking work is extremely lucrative. We recently had a massive all-hands-on doc review that needed to be done over the course of about three days. For those three days with everyone (and I do mean everyone) doing it, the firm billed $MM/hour in aggregate.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#73

Post by VanL »

sunchild wrote: post #64
VanL wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am doing this with patents. Google "Killing patents with Python" if you want to see the presentation.

Shoot me an email. I didn't find your presentation. I did find a Yahoo Answers on "Can a 4 foot long ball python kill a 4 lb. kitten?"

Rusty or Sol?

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#74

Post by ahi »

JACK CADE. Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven half-penny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hoop'd pot shall have ten hoops; and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king,- as king I will be,-

ALL. God save your majesty!

JACK CADE. I thank you, good people:- there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers, and worship me their lord.

DICK. The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

JACK CADE. Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o'er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee's wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since.- How now! who's there?

http://www.spectacle.org/797/finkel.html

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#75

Post by chollida1 »

noonespecial wrote: post #9

“The biggest problem,” says Ury, “is that ordinary citizens cannot afford to hire a lawyer. The bread and butter of small firm practices are criminal defense work, wills and trusts, leases, closings and divorces. Yet in Connecticut, 80 to 85 percent of divorces have a self-represented party because most families can’t afford to hire one lawyer, let alone two. Nearly 90 percent of criminal cases are self-represented o…

> I'd call that a 100%, red-line, sirens-blaring, system failure. "Less people are hiring us for $500/hour! What shall we do?" might not be the right question. "Why did anyone ever do so in the first place?" might be closer.

I've heard the reason described as such:

"People will pay the highest possible amount they can afford for things like doctors and lawyers because if there is a screw up they die or go to jail.

When the stakes are so high you pay the most you possibly can to ensure, to the best of your ability, the best possible outcome for yourself."

Atleast this line of thinking makes sense to me. If I'm ever up on trial for something that could send me to jail, you can bet I'll spend every penny I have to ensure that I'm found innocent.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#76

Post by [deleted] »

lionhearted wrote: post #8
chopsueyar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would allowing non-JD degree holders to take the bar help?

Yes, but the legal profession has incredible sway and power, so that won't happen. It would absolutely be possible for someone to specialize in just a single specific kind of law, become very knowledgeable about it, and make normal skilled professional money in the $25 to $75 per hour range. This is prohibited by regulation and licensing which amounts to a huge windfall for the legal profession. But it's unlikely to…

[deleted]

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#77

Post by lhnn »

sunchild wrote: post #61
grellas wrote: post #55

Having been in Big Law myself, I have previously set forth my thoughts at some length on this topic (see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648342 ). Fundamentally, law remains a guild system, with the governing licensing restrictions severely limiting the ability to innovate. Only licensed persons can be owners of firms and only licensed persons can provide the key services. No fee-splitting or profit sharing is p…

This is a great comment, but one nitpick: "No fee-splitting or profit sharing is permitted with any person who is not licensed." I believe this is no longer the case the UK and some other places.

Fair enough, and perhaps your comment is a sign of change. However, though this is a global forum, the source article is from the American Bar Association.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#78

Post by minikomi »

sunchild wrote: post #57
127001brewer wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can provide better service than ever before, because I have better tools at my disposal. Can you go into more detail about the tools you use? This seems like a good opportunity (as a software product) for selling to smaller firms.

I typically represent customers in contract negotiations with their upstream suppliers. That means I do lots of deals with many of the same names on the other side of the table, again and again (Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, etc.) After over a decade of doing this, I notice that my clients really want the answer to two questions: 1. What are the market standard terms for the transaction? 2. What did we (i.e., the client) a…

Not much to add but to say it's great to read about people with both knowledge and a solid passion in what they do. I wonder how we can seek out these kinds of "big" problems and push energy their way rather than trying to create just more social fluff..

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#80

Post by lhnn »

Bobby_Tables wrote: post #58
chopsueyar wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would allowing non-JD degree holders to take the bar help?

Depends on how you define "help". The reason there are so many unemployed JDs is that there are too many lawyers, and allowing people who didn't go to law school to take bar exams would make that problem even worse. On the other hand, if people could become lawyers without taking on $100,000 in not-dischargeable-under-any-circumstances debt, they would be able to make a living at a much more reasonable salary than is…

High barrier to entry and costs are part of the cause of the problem: If more people were allowed to qualify to practice, lowering rates and expanding the search for a better business model, the legal industry would be more flexible, cheaper, and accessible for the public.
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