Live data from Hacker News

"The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

abajournal.com

51–60 of 113 posts

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#51
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although there are some laws that can kind of be represented as computer code (for example, TurboTax captures a good portion of the tax code, and programming a 55 mph speed limit into a car shouldn't be hard) for the most part the law acts as a system for delegating to judges limited authority to exercise discretion. Ultimately, the decisions are made through that discretion, and they aren't entirely predictable. If…

I'll give it a look in, but yes, my general opinion is that discretion leads to subjectivity and unfairness. Unfortunately the attempts to reduce discretion have historically resulted in malicious arbitrariness, sentencing teenagers to sex offender status for sexting, silly three strikes laws ad et al. At the same time it seems to me that a more richly detailed granular objective system with oversight into the actual…

> attempts to reduce discretion have historically resulted in malicious arbitrariness

You're 90% of the way to the answer. Take into account Hanlon's Razor and it should become clear.

Unless the people designing the law are smart enough to take into account every single edge case, we're faced with a choice between gross miscarriages of justice through inflexible laws, and gross miscarriages of justice through incompetent or corrupt judges.

We know the people designing the law aren't that smart; and even if they were, the laws are already too complicated. The only solution is to strike a balance between the two types of errors that minimizes their sum.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#52
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's an interesting segue to this is that fundamentally the "language understanding" issues are mostly red herrings. The gold standard within the legal profession we are constantly led to believe is to pursue a standard of objective fairness and justice which would be better defined by deterministic, logical languages like programming languages rather than fuzzy, broad languages like English. It is far, far easier…

>a standard of objective fairness and justice which would be better defined by deterministic, logical languages like programming languages rather than fuzzy, broad languages like English. Can you formally define concepts and events occurring in a "fuzzy, broad" world in a useful way? It is kind of amusing to imagine that someone out there is sitting around with a recursively-enumerable objective statement of what con…

To the extent that applications defining the class to which you believe your behaviour exists and allowing you to test it with a high degree of specificity, yes. There have been explicit ventures along this exact path previously in a more limited extent, that being financial products having python based code that would allow the investors to put in a set of assumptions and see what the product model would do under those circumstances.

Fairness itself is a fuzzy concept, sure, but writing clearly delineated code that deals with reality in a concrete fashion with the goal of being fair is the only way that fairness even enters the equation.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's projects on this - one of the best known ones (to my knowledge) is the Stanford IP Litigation Clearinghouse Project: http://www.lexmachina.org/

Yes, litigation and compliance tend to lead the way when it comes to extracting meaning from legal data pools. In my opinion, the single biggest obstacle to getting legal knowledge to play nice with software is the fact that it is all "silo'ed" due to: (1) being in MS Word format, (2) being confidential information, and (3) the lack of conventions/standards in legal documents. The good news, though, is that legal doc…

I am doing this with patents. Google "Killing patents with Python" if you want to see the presentation.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#54

I live and breathe this topic. After 12 years at big law firms in NYC, myself and a collection of our best and brightest broke off and founded our own firms (mine in NYC, another in London). This is actually very relevant to the HN community, because it's all about how to run a business. The problem with legal services begins and ends with poor business practices. Law firms are addicted to covering their own lack of…

Absolutely! BigLaw is (was?) a house of cards waiting for the right circumstances to blow it over. My law practice is only part time, and I run it like my software company operates - lean, innovative and hellbent on providing really good value for clients. I have more than enough legal clients in the pipeline to keep me busy and my startup background gives me a great foundation for advising my target clients. As for tools to run my practice, if I can't get what I need at a reasonable price I build it and make it available to my colleagues at a reasonable price.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#55
Having been in Big Law myself, I have previously set forth my thoughts at some length on this topic (see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648342).

Fundamentally, law remains a guild system, with the governing licensing restrictions severely limiting the ability to innovate. Only licensed persons can be owners of firms and only licensed persons can provide the key services. No fee-splitting or profit sharing is permitted with any person who is not licensed. Even one who is licensed is limited is performing services other than in the locale for which he is licensed. All of this may be well and good for "maintaining standards," as the bar associations say, but it means this is and will remain a closed profession that remains remote and removed from average people.

This is not a knock on professionalism. A really good lawyer is well worth the price, even at high rates, for many business transactions. But making services broadly affordable remains a challenge. Technology can help as long as the laws bend enough to allow firms to adopt innovative business models taking advantage of it - how far this can go will ultimately depend on the rules of the guild.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't take this as a flippant comment, because it isn't meant to be, but the answer to your latter question is - it's what the market bears (or did bear). There's plenty of lawyers out there - but, like in programming, there are a lot fewer good ones. In general, people are willing to pay $500 / hour because they can't find one of similar quality for a lower price.

Most legal work isn't a market, it is a racket. Lawyers in Congress and state houses write deliberately complex, yet often vague, "laws" in order to create business for their pals in the legal guild (where they typically join them after the law passes). They also design various malpractice laws and penalties to generate huge payouts to the legal suits. From health care to IP to shareholder issues, "Lawyer up!" is the…

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but a huge problem in state legislatures is that the congressmembers are NOT lawyers and write legislation that is really costly to sort out when it gets litigated.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#57

I live and breathe this topic. After 12 years at big law firms in NYC, myself and a collection of our best and brightest broke off and founded our own firms (mine in NYC, another in London). This is actually very relevant to the HN community, because it's all about how to run a business. The problem with legal services begins and ends with poor business practices. Law firms are addicted to covering their own lack of…

I can provide better service than ever before, because I have better tools at my disposal. Can you go into more detail about the tools you use? This seems like a good opportunity (as a software product) for selling to smaller firms.

I typically represent customers in contract negotiations with their upstream suppliers. That means I do lots of deals with many of the same names on the other side of the table, again and again (Microsoft, Oracle, IBM, etc.)

After over a decade of doing this, I notice that my clients really want the answer to two questions:

1. What are the market standard terms for the transaction?

2. What did we (i.e., the client) agree to in the past?

In big law firms, the answer to these two questions is all too often locked into silos. Either knowledge of past deals is hidden from software because it's buried in MS format binary files, or it's buried in someone's head. It's quite common to see intraoffice communiqués go out by email: "Has anyone done XYZ for ABC in the past?" You might get a few responses...or none at all. It's very spotty, and not a good way to build institutional knowledge. At some firms, there might be a Sharepoint or Lotus Notes "knowledgebase" (ugh!), but those are often next to useless and involve a lot of manual human overhead to maintain.

When people think of technologies to enable deal law practice, they often go straight for document assembly or document management. Document assembly and templating is a bore, IMO. It's an area that is already too full of competitors who are trying to solve problems that I don't actually have. Since I tend to represent customers, I don't usually get to create the first draft of the contract. I've actually built a custom document repository with some nice features (e.g., email dropboxes, etc.) but that's just housekeeping, IMO. The real magic lies elsewhere...

In my view, the "document-oriented" viewpoint is the wrong way to approach these problems. Instead, law firms and their clients should be looking ways to break down the document barriers and convert contracts into seamless, actionable data.

Litigation, and patent/corporate due diligence are currently ahead of my practice area in this respect. My practice area (commercial transactions) involves a completely different set of problems and skills, and is an emerging market for technology applications. I'm biased, but I think my practice is harder to commoditize than, say, searching through millions of emails to find phrase matches or potentially privileged communications.

Since leaving big law, I've worked with other lawyers to develop systems for extracting and archiving the information we need to answer the two big questions: What did the client do in the past, and what is everybody else in the market doing today?

Other areas where we use/develop technology in ways that big firms can't:

- Task assignment systems for delegating work to non-lawyers or offshore lawyers, while retaining a clear, auditable record of who did what. Think project checklist templates similar to Basecamp, but more focused on our use cases.

- Interfaces to our timekeeping APIs (Harvest and Freshbooks) for custom reporting/visualization on how we spend our time. This helps us accurately quote fixed fees for projects, and surfaces interesting data about role in the contracting process.

It's a really interesting area. If you're involved in it at all, get in touch with me. I love talking about it with people who "get it". I'm a coder and a lawyer, so I'm perpetually stuck in both (and neither) of the two worlds of law and coding.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#58
post #4

The problem is that law school is an absurdly expensive exercise that, incredibly, doesn't actually teach graduates how to practice law. How else can you explain the fact that there are tons of unemployed JDs out there, and yet the average citizen can't afford basic legal services?

Would allowing non-JD degree holders to take the bar help?

Depends on how you define "help". The reason there are so many unemployed JDs is that there are too many lawyers, and allowing people who didn't go to law school to take bar exams would make that problem even worse.

On the other hand, if people could become lawyers without taking on $100,000 in not-dischargeable-under-any-circumstances debt, they would be able to make a living at a much more reasonable salary than is currently necessary, which would allow the market for legal services to start correcting itself.

What really needs to happen is that the bar pass rate needs to be lowered significantly in markets that are over-saturated (pretty much any big city). It should probably even be lowered to zero (ie stop offering the bar exam) for a couple of years in states like New York.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#59
post #54

I live and breathe this topic. After 12 years at big law firms in NYC, myself and a collection of our best and brightest broke off and founded our own firms (mine in NYC, another in London). This is actually very relevant to the HN community, because it's all about how to run a business. The problem with legal services begins and ends with poor business practices. Law firms are addicted to covering their own lack of…

Absolutely! BigLaw is (was?) a house of cards waiting for the right circumstances to blow it over. My law practice is only part time, and I run it like my software company operates - lean, innovative and hellbent on providing really good value for clients. I have more than enough legal clients in the pipeline to keep me busy and my startup background gives me a great foundation for advising my target clients. As for…

You sound like my kind of lawyer. We should be organizing like-minded lawyers and forcing changes on a bigger scale.

Please get in touch with me. My firm's homepage should appear in my profile.

Re: "The legal profession is undergoing a massive structural shift"

#60
post #34

I am waiting for the day when there are laywers in single practice who charge rates of less than $100/hr like many other professionals do. I know some laywers who are complaining about tough times but they still think they are worth $250/hr.

To play devil's lawyer: lawyers have very high fixed costs due to insurance + bar fees. In Ontario they're about $6k a year. Database subscriptions are also very pricey. The expenses are considerably higher than that associated with programming.

Somehow I doubt that these fixed costs justify $250/hr vs $100/hr. But I am not 100% sure.
Post reply on HN