How Basecamp Blew Up • Hacker News Board

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#551

Post by JPKab » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

didgeoridoo wrote: post #330

mpyne wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. This isn't the argument actually being made here, so if that's what DHH thought when he shut the thread down then that might explain part of the outcry. The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere , far below violence. "Funny names" turn into off-color jokes. Off-color jokes turn i…

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

I agree with you 100%.

Utilization of the pyramid of hate in this way makes me feel like it's just a retroactive justification of hypersensitive behavior amongst overly fragile employees. Honestly a lot of times it's not even hypersensitivity so much is just overt paranoia.

You're on the money about encouraging people to form their identities around these characteristics.

Instead of having a conversation about excessive police militarization and police brutality directed at all American citizens we had it around one group. In the US 75% of the people killed by police each year are not black and nobody knows their names because the media has caused Americans to think that it's a issue unique to, rather than disproportionate for black Americans.

Instead of having a unifying and inclusive movement for police reform we got a politically weaponized racially polarizing movement.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#552

Post by wyclif » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:46 AM UTC

SvenMarquardt wrote: post #480

etchalon wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capitalization of Black is becoming increasingly accepted editorially due to its similarities to otherwise capitalized words like Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Marxist, Irish, etc. Essentially, a culturally distinct body of people. "white" isn't capitalized because it doesn't bear as much similarities to those words, as "white" is not a cultural identity.

> "white" isn't capitalized because it doesn't bear as much similarities to those words It is precisely the same as black. The mental gymnastics on display here are astonishing.

Yes, the point is that "black" is no more a cultural identity than "white" is. There are black Americans, black Englishmen, black Africans, etc.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#553

Post by dnautics » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

otde wrote: post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

> You point out that this is part of a pattern of societal behavior you’ve known your whole life.

Sure, as a poc I can empathize with this but to then escalate it beyond "hey this sucks, let's stop, let's be better humans" to godwinning it with real atrocities in the outside world is toxic to the workplace. I would not want to work at a place where a POC of my own color was constantly making everything out to be a racial issue, and saying that my colleagues were the worst and equating them to literal terrorists and nazis because they did an ignorant thing here or there, not the least because I'm sure that even as a conscientious person I make mistakes from time to time and I'd rather be treated with forgiveness than blame.

Being treated with forgiveness instead of blame goes for technical stuff and incident management, too. If you start doing this with social issues 100% the culture of blame will bleed over into the technical issues and it won't be pretty.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#554

Post by ipaddr » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #520

duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

Demanding you denounce a minority population is how we got into this problem in the first place.

Don't you see you are creating white supremacy by demanding everyone persecute it? You create the demand.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#555

Post by kisstheblade » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

“I strongly disagree we live in a white supremacist culture,” Singer said.

Does the "black employee" actually think the culture is "white supremacist"? That's a horrible view in my opinion, and this guy seems to be the biggest problem.

The Black employee responded: “You said, ‘white supremacy doesn't exist.’ That's a factual lie. It's not true.”

Yeah, Singer didn't say that.

Well, "bend the knee" and apologize for being white, bravo, I couldn't think of anything more racist than this way of thinking.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#556

Post by [deleted] » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #336

dsnr wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? I can think of a reason. To protect employees who are not part of the woke mob from being “canceled” by the woke mob.

any time I find someone like you complaining about “getting cancelled” or “cancel culture”, I just replace “cancel” with “consequences”, since that’s what it really is. They wanted to protect employees from the consequences of their words and actions.

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#557

Post by vxNsr » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

rsanheim wrote: post #483

Consultant32452 wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at a Fortune 500 company that has gone woke, complete with critical race theory training. I'm literally the only white person in my department. I'm the racial minority. Do you think any of the training even considered that a possibility? Before this change in the company I had never even noticed my race in relation to my coworkers and I absolutely hate them for bringing it to my attention and forcing me agains…

Congratulations, you have an opportunity to experience what it feels like to work in tech as a person of color, or a woman, or any of the many other underrepresented groups in tech. Only those people experience every day at almost all companies, and can't escape it by leaving their existing company. Maybe see it as a chance to learn and grow instead of something to resent and run from?

This is of course the worst take. When I was in 4th grade we had to read a short story about a society that enforced sameness, it wasn’t the giver where they did it genetically, rather if you were smart they’d fix headphones to your ears that played a loud obnoxious noise so you couldn’t think, if you were tall or athletic they crippled you, basically they brought everyone down to the same bad level...

That’s the society you’re trying to build.

ETA: people are logging their disagreement in downvotes but I haven’t seen a counter argument to this at any point in this thread, I’m ok with the dv, just interested in hearing the opposing view.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#558

Post by acituan » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #516

> One can empathically agree that such injustice, and any injustice, sucks, and still advocate compartmentalizing between institutions of the society writ large. That depends very heavily on the nature of the injustice, doesn't it? I mean, take Godwin's perspective here: that's literally the logic that gave us the holocaust! Implicit in your statement is the idea that the "injustice" might "suck", but not so much tha…

> Implicit in your statement is the idea that the "injustice" might "suck", but not so much that it's worth blowing up your employer. Which is to say: you really don't think this injustice sucked very much.

You're both misreading and over-reading.

The comparison is not between how much the injustice sucks vs. the cost of blowing up the employer. It is a) whether all injustices have equitable access to pressuring employers and b) whether parasitizing any organization to advance a cause, however honorable the intentions are, is a fair game despite the negative externalities.

If any cause fails either of these criteria, it is bound to be creating its own injustices.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#559

Post by wyclif » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #360

thrownaway564 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

> husband Yup. Pro tip: If you're at a SV-influenced company and you find yourself talking about your personal life, don't say "husband," "wife," "boyfriend," or "girlfriend;" say "partner." That signals that you're an Ally rather than an Enemy. You'll notice other weird speech patterns too. Pay attention to them; they're meaningful.

I often see that peculiar speech pattern here on HN! It's like they're afraid to say 'wife' out of fear of offending the woke mob. The same people who are OK with work being a constant struggle seminar.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#560

Post by JPKab » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

wmoxam wrote: post #398

didgeoridoo wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The argument is simply that the behavior everyone claims to decry (e.g. racial violence) starts somewhere, far below violence This is just a rehash of broken-windows theory, whether its proponents know it or not. The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there. There is zero evidence behind the “pyramid of hate” — it makes a shallow kind of sense, but has no basis in the real w…

> The Hutus and Tutsis didn’t start with some off-color ribbing and escalate from there Perhaps it didn't "start" with "off-color ribbing" but the usage of 'jokes' (see: Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines) to desensitize people to hatred towards the Tutsis is well documented. It was unpopular to speak out against this sort of thing, and certainly was something that got worse over time. Further, racial violence…

And yet this whole ridiculous movement is isolated to the United States and not at all popular in nations like Brazil which got dramatically more African slaves brought to them in the time of the slave trade.

When you get sucked in by a US-centric ideology that is almost entirely based out of US universities you get these glaring holes in these theories that don't make sense as soon as you move them to another country.

Explain to me why this movement hasn't caught on in Brazil? Or any of the other numerous South American countries which were huge destinations for African slaves? I don't see this crap happening in Columbia.

This is all just elite overproduction with a bunch of professors who 40 years ago still thought communism was a great idea indoctrinating kids who have a naturally conformist mindset.

Google and Amazon can afford to have this crap but startups can't and that's why you're seeing it evaporate from the small companies first. Let the unproductive all talk no walk poser engineers obsess about this instead of writing code. The rest of us will get to work somewhere else.