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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#251
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I think he’s lying here to cover his own ass. Especially if he’s been in the habit of quoting Breitbart, him pulling the “actually racism against whites is the real issue” is entirely believable.

The article asked Singer for a comment, and printed his full reply. > I objected to an employee’s statement that we live in a white supremacist culture. White supremacism exists, and America’s history of racism still presents terrible problems, but I don’t agree that we should label our entire culture with this ideology. His reply was focused on white supremacy in America, he didn't mention a misunderstanding about r…

> The article asked Singer for a comment, and printed his full reply.

And in the meantime his interlocutors have acted to remain anonymous... I grant benefit of the doubt to Singer.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is badly missing the point. I think two very specific things happened here: First, the executives absolutely clamped down hard on a discussion about workplace behavior . I think their attempt to cast this as “political” is deeply cynical; discussing how people behave at work will always be in bounds, even if it touches up against issues that are politicized. The initial trigger here was a discussion abou…

Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? Fourth, they retaliated against employees by taking away benefits in the most humiliating way possible, via the aforementioned disastrous public blog post. And yet, people are still going to bat for them because...I don't know. It seems like a lot of people have a religious faith in the deci…

> Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why?

I can think of a reason. To protect employees who are not part of the woke mob from being “canceled” by the woke mob.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#253
post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

> Nor did he see the irony in the fact that holding a person responsible for horrible action of people who look like them is the same way of thinking that leads bigots to blame all Arabs for the actions of the 9/11 hijackers.

I like to do the "Muslim test" on these things: replace "white people" (or "men", or any other group) with "Muslims" and see how it sounds then. If it sounds yikes then it's probably not a good thing to say.

I use "Muslim" because there's been a lot of discussion surrounding that in my own country, but you can use "Jew", "black", etc. as well.

It's easy to forget how sweeping statements can be received by its targets. I think we've all been guilty of this sometimes. The only time I've ever had a HN comment moderated is when I made some overly general statements about British culture. Mea culpa.

It's only natural to make mistakes, and that's okay. The difference is that I've apologized for it and realized my mistake, rather than double down hard (in my defence, as an EU expat living in the UK at the time, I was rather ... peeved ... about Brexit at the time, the surrounding debate regarding EU migrants, and various people ranting to me about this, as were most of my EU expat friends).

I vote things like the Green party and Socialist party, and the only time I've been directly involved in political activism was to campaign in favour of an asylum centre in my home town after idiots started opposing it with all sorts of bullshit. It's perhaps a bit said that this needs to be said, but I'm hardly some alt-right troll. But I find the messaging on these kind of things increasingly tiresome and frankly toxic.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#254
post #238
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because anyone who claims reverse racism exists is a defacto racist (even if they would deny it) becaus they obviously don't understand how racism works. If I had someone saying that shit in my company on a Zoom call, I would excuse myself, remove them from the call, schedule a 1 on 1 meeting with them, and explain to them that they need to take training on what racism is and how it is perpetrated, or leave.

Heh, you know, usually there's punctuation we use to denote sarcasm, lest anyone get the impression that this sort of draconian policing of ideology goes on at benkoworks.

I always will openly oppose racism in any company I lead, just as I will always openly denounce libertarianism as a horrible cancer on western democracies.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#255

Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I would maybe be more sympathetic to DHH if it wasn't the guy who was so opinionated he pushed through Rails features that everyone else disliked or co-wrote several books on company culture that are glorified ads for basecamp (although "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" is still a thought-provoking read, at least in part). I can only imagine that he might b…

> Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I agree for the most part there. Less so the founders, I think there sin runs more along the lines of being extremely naive (but in a way a lot of people might be, especially when the alternative might be to accept you're screwed). > something must have gone fundamentally wrong much earlier. These levels of tension and distrust don't just arise out of nowhere…

> Less so the founders, I think there sin runs more along the lines of being extremely naive

Fried and DHH are a lot of things, but naive isn’t one of them.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#256
post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

> Seeing good companies get torn to shreds by this campus idiocy reminds me of how insulated academia is from the real world. What does this have to do with academia?

Nothing. The parent has an axe to grind.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#257
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point the OP is making is that an overt statement such as "White power!!1 Jews will not replace us!!!sixonetikitorches" directly exposes a white supremacist opinion, whereas there are less overt actions that, if analysed thoughtfully, also expose white supremacy. It is very similar to people who say "I'm not racist, I don't think I'm superior to anyone and the dictionary definition of racism is to assume…

> What I have found in discussions with people who I think are racist, but who deny it, Define "racist"

Those who think that a group of people are inferior based on racial characteristics (and/or ethnicity ... ie. for some definition of "race" even though the very distinction is pretty tenuous if you get into the biology/genetics of it all).

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#258
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what he said though.

> I don't believe in a lot of the framing around implicit bias. I think a lot of this is actually racist. So yes, the article does claim that he said this. Obviously he contests this, but it appears to be just his word alone against other people who were on the call. The balance of evidence does not appear to be on his side, here.

Except none of them are stepping forward from what we can tell. It's all an anonymous patchwork of he-said-she-said except for Singer. His evidence is the only evidence because the rest is completely unverifiable.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#260

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

I understand your frustration with the polarization of political discourse in the workplace- I imagine it is stressful for all involved. However I think the notion that everything is becoming more and more political, is a little bit misleading. What of your work does not affect society? Do the products and services produced by the firms that employ you not affect it? Do the employees not work for wages necessary for their immediate survival? Do most working people not spend a substantial portion of their daily lives in a fashion dictated by those furnishing those wages?

I have trouble imagining how labor could ever lack a political dimension, and the distinction that presents itself to me between the past supposedly 'less politicized' workplaces, is that workers (or at least minoritized workers) were simply less safe to discuss politics and justice in this context that dominates their life and survival.

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