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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#541

Post by JPKab »

etchalon wrote: post #489
SvenMarquardt wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "white" isn't capitalized because it doesn't bear as much similarities to those words It is precisely the same as black. The mental gymnastics on display here are astonishing.

It's a replacement for the term "African American", which is the best way to think of it and why it's capitalized. A good number of major publications have posted explanations for the editorial change: https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-cultures-race-and-e... https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/05/insider/capitalized-black...

Respectfully, I view these explanations as a retcon.

Race is a social construct and the reason these newspapers chose not to capitalize white was because it's historically been capitalized by white nationalists. It's also historically been capitalized by black nationalists. That's what ethno-fascists do. They reduce reality down to singular dimensions and obsess about them as they tell everyone to blame their problems on that reason.

Like they did in Germany they point to a group in that case the German Jews that is extremely culturally similar to another group that has less money per capita and then tell them that the explanation for these folks having more is they've taken it from you.

They spend decades creating an entire ideology and mythology around this notion.

Sound familiar?

I first noticed the capitalization of black when I was in college in the early 2000s and was enrolled in several black studies courses for my electives. A few extreme radicals there insisted on capitalizing black because they spent so much time around black nationalists.

I'm glad these journalistic institutions found a compelling explanation for doing what they were being told to do by activist groups. It's absurd and ridiculous and it looks like religion. What's next are they going to demand we all capitalize God too, like the oppressive evangelical churches of my childhood made me do? Those same churches also told me that I couldn't use the word lucky and I had to use the word blessed instead because that's what identitarians do: They coerce your speech so they can coerce your thoughts.

I know this was a long rant but it's pretty awful to see this stuff get defended with anything looking like logic when it's absolutely not.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#542

Post by jjeaff »

arp242 wrote: post #469
jjeaff wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree about trying not to say things that are hurtful, but surely you understand the difference in making a defamatory remark about a minority or oppressed group vs a similar remark about a majority group that holds most of the wealth and power?

I think this entire mindset is wrong. I have no wealth nor power, I'm just a bloke trying to get by and struggling in life just like everyone else, not always equally successful I might add. Groups of people are comprised individuals, with large degrees of variation in any group. Using averages can be important for some things, but context and nuance matters a lot. Not every white person "holds most of the wealth and…

I grew up middle class, rural, and southern. So I don't have all the privileges in the world. But at the same time, I know that the privilege I lack is not because I am white. That is why when someone makes a negative comment about white people, it has very little affect on me. But hearing offensive comments/jokes about rednecks when I moved out west, that hurt a little, because there is some history behind that and maybe even a little truth. And that fact that I get lumped in with that stereotypical redneck idea is a bit hurtful. But it's nothing like the history behind being Black in America.

So no, it's not the same thing. Because context matters and who is saying it to whom matters.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#543

Post by duxup »

newacct583 wrote: post #520
duxup wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can understand being hurt and more about the funny names list. But I think things have gotten out of hand when at an all hands meeting people are debating topics like: "we live in a white supremacist culture" Or demands from one employee to another at all hands meetings to denounce white supremacy. I doubt many companies could handle that right... and I'm sure many people would come away more hurt.

We don't know the context, but as to your second item... when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial? I know what you're really saying, which is that people on the right feel persecuted by being implicitly accused of being racists. And... y'know, that's fair. Probably 90% of the time in arguments like this that's an unfounded accusation made in bad faith just to score points. But still... the t…

I think demanding someone denounce white supremacy on demand seems kafkaesque.

You're only asked if you're perceived to have done or said something someone else thinks wrong...

"when did denouncing white supremacy become something controversial"

I don't know what you mean by that, and i honestly don't understand who "you guys" are or the rest of your premise.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#544

Post by crooked-v »

s__s wrote: post #498
SantalBlush wrote: post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep reading the term "free speech" being brought up in these discussions. Some people have come to believe that free speech means "I can say what I want and nobody is allowed to respond negatively." But this definition is, ironically, the polar opposite of free speech.

Free speech by necessity requires tolerance. If there are extreme consequences to what you say you’re obviously not free to speak what you believe. Losing your livelihood, being bullied, death threats, mob harassment etc are not acceptable responses to ideas or opinions you don’t like.

Loss of livelihood is an entirely acceptable response to some ideas or opinions. For example: a doctor who holds the opinion that microorganisms don't actually exist and that diseases are caused by humours should be removed from their position as a doctor.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#545

Post by JPKab »

SvenMarquardt wrote: post #475
JPKab wrote: post #232

Do what I did in February: Quit. Life's too short to waste time at a company that's forgotten it's purpose. This ideology borders on cult like. A good sign that you are dealing with an irrational ideology is non-sensical, illogical and inconsisten rules. For example, in this article, "Black" is capitalized everywhere its mentioned, and "white" isn't. There's nothing logically consistent about this, because it's a bor…

They're just following the Associated Press style guidelines: https://apnews.com/article/archive-race-and-ethnicity-910566...

They're just following orders.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#546

Post by paxys »

My take on this whole saga is – don’t offer your employees (who get no equity) 6 months salary to quit, no questions asked, and be surprised when a lot of them take you up on it. It would be idiotic not to in the current software job market.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#547

Post by [deleted] »

MattRix wrote: post #336
dsnr wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? I can think of a reason. To protect employees who are not part of the woke mob from being “canceled” by the woke mob.

any time I find someone like you complaining about “getting cancelled” or “cancel culture”, I just replace “cancel” with “consequences”, since that’s what it really is. They wanted to protect employees from the consequences of their words and actions.

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#548

Post by [deleted] »

MattRix wrote: post #336
dsnr wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Third, they secretly deleted over a decade's worth of company chat history shortly before making the disastrous blog post. Why? I can think of a reason. To protect employees who are not part of the woke mob from being “canceled” by the woke mob.

any time I find someone like you complaining about “getting cancelled” or “cancel culture”, I just replace “cancel” with “consequences”, since that’s what it really is. They wanted to protect employees from the consequences of their words and actions.

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#549

Post by js2 »

gustavo-fring wrote: post #526

I'm Jewish Colombian among other things. I'm a mutt. I can pass as white. Where my dad came from (Scary Gary) you voted Republican because up until about the 1960s, they were the party that cared about immigrants and wanted them to succeed. So, when he moved to a similarly Republican state in the 80s, he remained a Republican. The Republican is not a werewolf boogeyman around here. I made the mistake once of saying t…

The Republican party has cynically been using race for fifty years to split the working class vote.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

So for someone to say they aren't Republican because they aren't racist is hyperbolic, but it isn't wrong.

What is Scary Gary?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#550

Post by MisterBastahrd »

JPKab wrote: post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

> Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence.

Adults understand that dehumanizing someone is one path along the road that ends in violence.

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