Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#451

Post by optimiz3 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

unishark wrote: post #450

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great argument, could be used to rebut anything: If someone wants their mobile phone data and photos to be private, they should make a compelling mobile os they control. If someone wants a water supply that is not polluted with toxic runoff they should start their own waterworks, lay their own pipes, and potentially buy their own lake because some pollution is unremovable. If someone wants not to be discriminated aga…

Meanwhile your reduction tactic can be used to claim entitlement to anything. You have to give me whatever I want or modify your behavior in whatever ways I insist upon, because the only alternative for me to get my demands met is by creating the product from scratch and/or starting my own country, which is of course absurd.

> starting my own country

Technically this worked pretty well when we had unexplored continents. If Elon has his way, maybe we'll soon-ish have Mars.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#452

Post by passivate » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

spaceribs wrote: post #373

passivate wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said "X would be great" but didn't explain why, so a response like "No, X would be bad" is equally lacking in details. Its hard to discuss anything without an underlying basis for the conversation. There is no precedent for the US government providing services comparable to Amazon at comparable cost/benefit.

I explained why, commercial goods and services would have a safe sponsored forum to sell their wares without worrying about a profit hungry giant measuring their success, cloning their business and driving them to bankruptcy.

You have identified a goal, which is a great start, and is definitely worth considering. However, I see a few gaps when connecting the dots. At present, there is nothing stopping one vendor from cloning another vendors products and services and marketing them outside of Amazon. So many products these days are just white-label goods made in China and rebranded elsewhere. Also, should the government really be in involved in managing logistics, storing and shipping smartphones and sneakers all over the world? I don't see this as the best use of our tax-dollars.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#453

Post by Closi » Tue, May 04, 2021, 8:30 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #387

Closi wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products. It's similar, although personally I think the relationship between the companies is meaningfully different: Costco purchases product from manufacturers, and may choose to source product from other manufacturers (including under its own brand name). It uses it's own sales data to make this decision. Amazon acts a…

Despite this I don't see how the case is that Amazon is being anti competitive while Costco isn't - just because they purchase and resell inventory doesn't mean Costco (or Walmart or Sams Club etc) doesn't hold the same power over their product suppliers that Amazon does to do data science on their sales to determine what new products to make in-house. Plus, walmart is now a marketplace as well. This overpriced GPU i…

> Just because they purchase and resell inventory doesn't mean Costco (or Walmart or Sams Club etc) doesn't hold the same power over their product suppliers that Amazon does

With the Costco example, Costco as a retailer holds power over their product suppliers. If they are making an own brand, what they are doing is buying it from another supplier and asking that manufacturer to put their own label on it. These relationships can be anti-competitive and present opportunities for market-abuse, but in a meaningfully different way to the Amazon example.

With the Amazon example, Amazon holds power over other retailers using their platform.

And with the Walmart example you have stated, I do think that suffers from the same problems.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#454

Post by robertlagrant » Tue, May 04, 2021, 8:41 AM UTC

spaceribs wrote: post #368

robertlagrant wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's how lotteries work in the US. Companies don't have to be behemoths to pay no tax on income. They just have to post no profits by spending all the money they make on opex and capex.

I understand the system, I just want to be clear how broken this is. Both are windfalls, one gets taxed immediately, the other gets taxed if they don't use up all their profits reinvesting in themselves by the end of the year.

How are they windfalls? For whom?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#455

Post by HWR_14 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:05 AM UTC

Gasparila wrote: post #175

Thought exercise because I legitimately struggle with this. Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell? If so, how? If not, then why do we not pursue Costco with the same gusto as Amazon? To me this behavior by Amazon seems worse, but I can't figure out why.

> Is this fundamentally different than Costco using sales data to choose which Kirkland products to launch/sell?

It's 100% different. Costco doesn't make any of the Kirkland brand products. Their suppliers do. And Costco usually only carries one brand of, say, batteries. They go to Duracell and say "We want to buy X Duracell batteries and Y Kirkland batteries from you over the next Z years". If Duracell doesn't want it, their next call is the same thing to Energizer.

Basically, Costco says to their suppliers "We want to give you X high margin sales and Y much lower margin sales." And you know that going in. And are ecstatic because all those sales would otherwise go to your competitor.

Amazon says "here's a flea market", then uses their security cameras to see what items are selling at everyone's stalls. The next day, the stalls of the people who run the flea market (right next to the front door) also have the best selling items. Oh, and their tables are infinite and maybe they also fuck with the listings on the map to make it harder to find that those items are also at your booth.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#456

Post by HWR_14 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 10:11 AM UTC

awillen wrote: post #258

cgriswald wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the wrong mental model. Amazon isn’t Costco. Amazon is a shopping mall that has access to its tenants’ sales information and also owns an anchor store in the same mall. Costco can determine that Best Brand shoes sell in its stores and decide to source shoes themselves and stop carrying Best Brand. Amazon can determine that the Footlocker in their mall is making a killing selling Best Brand shoes and either s…

This explanation doesn't explain the difference to me at all. Costco can see that vodka sells well, so they can make Kirkland brand vodka. They control the layout of the store, so they can change the layout so people see Kirkland brand first when they get to the liquor section. They know the pricing of other vodkas and which ones sell well, so they can source Kirkland vodka at an ideal price point. None of what you'v…

Costco sources Kirkland products from people they already do business with. So if they see your Vodka is doing great, they call you and ask (well, as a giant customer of yours "ask") you to make a Kirkland version as well. On those bottles you'll make less, but you're still going to make a lot of money there. And getting cheaper people to buy your product without diluting your brand. And a lot of money off your branded product. Most things I've seen from manufacturers online is that being asked to supply Costco with their product and the Kirkland version is a win from both asks.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#457

Post by hdanirwin » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:36 AM UTC

Why does this surprise anyone? What company would do anything different?

This is why I’ve never made selling on Amazon anything more than a side-hustle. You’re just a pawn, totally at someone else’s mercy, and if you are too successful you’re bound to be eaten by a bigger fish who knows how your sausage is made.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#458

Post by robertlagrant » Tue, May 04, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

spaceribs wrote: post #437

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you can think this is broken. Think about the implications if it wasn't like this. Bankruptcy would be rampant and R&D investment would be impossible for everyone but the largest companies.

I disagree, as these companies already calculate how much they need to spend to prevent having to pay taxes.

That doesn't matter. They're still spending it, rather than keeping it as profit.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#459

Post by nkrisc » Tue, May 04, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #307

nkrisc wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> relationship that they have with third party sellers There are no third party sellers at Costco, it’s only Costco.

Not always true. Usually, Costco/Target/Walmart/etc. pay for it before it sells, but it’s not always like that. “Vendor” products like Frito Lay, Bimbo, etc. are sometimes given the ability to just put product on the floor at no cost to the retailer. When it sells, the retailer will send money to the vendor.

I know, but I deliberately didn’t mention that because it’s the exception, not the rule.

If you pick up a random item in Costco, it’s paid for and sold by Costco.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#460

Post by nkrisc » Tue, May 04, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #306

nkrisc wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> relationship that they have with third party sellers There are no third party sellers at Costco, it’s only Costco.

Costco buys products from third party sellers. That is a relationship with third party sellers.

No, those are Costco’s suppliers which are completely invisible to the customer and completely different.

Costco purchases the items from the suppliers, generally. They then resell them to you for a markup.

With few exceptions, every single item in Costco is sold by the first party seller: Costco. So my point stands: third party sellers are generally not a part of the Costco experience.