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Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

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Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#371

Post by ska »

Tinyyy wrote: post #364
jorblumesea wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. It would be like if Amazon owned the entire mall, and would kick out competitors and establish their own stores once they become profitable. Amazon is both a retailer in the sense that they sell products, but also owns the entire marketplace as well.

They don’t kick out competitors though, merely open up their own stores. To me (the consumer), that seems fine.

To abuse this analogy further - if they also put signs for their owns stores in front of the other stores signage, or redesign the mall to direct people away from the competitors - that seems less fine.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#372

Post by cowpig »

neolog wrote: post #356
cowpig wrote: post #348

Can we just rule that internet marketplaces cannot offer competing products on their own platforms? The fundamental conflicts of interest will always persist otherwise. This is going to sound radical but I think Google Search should be broken away from everything else and/or Google products should not be accessible via the search page (or allowed to buy ad space)

If you make something and sell it in a store, does that mean you're not allowed to sell other people's products in your store?

A store is bound to a physical location, whereas online platforms seem to tend toward monopoly

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#373

Post by spaceribs »

passivate wrote: post #293
spaceribs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon has issues, but "nationalizing" it would not ease those issues in fact in most ways it would make them worse. Change my mind then? What would be worse in that situation?

You said "X would be great" but didn't explain why, so a response like "No, X would be bad" is equally lacking in details. Its hard to discuss anything without an underlying basis for the conversation. There is no precedent for the US government providing services comparable to Amazon at comparable cost/benefit.

I explained why, commercial goods and services would have a safe sponsored forum to sell their wares without worrying about a profit hungry giant measuring their success, cloning their business and driving them to bankruptcy.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#374

Post by cowpig »

idiotsecant wrote: post #358
cowpig wrote: post #348

Can we just rule that internet marketplaces cannot offer competing products on their own platforms? The fundamental conflicts of interest will always persist otherwise. This is going to sound radical but I think Google Search should be broken away from everything else and/or Google products should not be accessible via the search page (or allowed to buy ad space)

Should walmart be able to produce and offer generic versions of brand name items on their shelves? Why or why not?

I don't think they're similar. There are many stores in my neighborhood, but there's only one google, only one app store on my phone, and only one Amazon.

I also think the degree to which the platform can exploit data related to producers (and consumers) is totally different with online marketplaces.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#375

Post by mdoms »

dehrmann wrote: post #303
jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

> But Amazon is also a marketplace Meanwhile, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174276 "Amazon Liable for Defective Third-Party Products Rules CA Appellate Court" It seems both regulators and Amazon want whether or not it's a marketplace to go both ways whenever it's convenient.

There's nothing definitional about "marketplace" that says you don't have to bear responsibility for what is bought and sold on your marketplace.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#376

Post by elliekelly »

judge2020 wrote: post #346
addicted wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony. Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

> Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws. I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that the U.S. isn't enforcing its antitrust laws, the DOJ certainly opens investigations against these conglomerates, they just don't take them to court, so there might not be enough info for the DOJ to think there's a case. We don't know the full story for any of these cases a…

> The problem is probably that the DOJ doesn't like to bring cases against people in they they don't have hard evidence and a high likelihood to succeed in their prosecution

It has nothing to do with a lack of evidence and everything to do with not biting the hands that feed the boss's next campaign fund.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#377

Post by mdoms »

whoknew1122 wrote: post #84
mk89 wrote: post #21

Well, it's something that is slowly backfiring. It's under the eyes of everyone, and not enforcing such policy will only make it even worse for Amazon itself that eventually will end up selling only non-branded products. Finally it will be only another e-commerce like "ebay" used to be, and something else will replace it. Just enjoy the ride until you can. PS: speaking out of experience, I had one time a talk to a di…

Amazon != AWS. As someone who has access to customer data in AWS, I'm very limited in what information I can access (to the point where it actively makes my job in Premium Support harder than it would be otherwise). I also have to provide a legitimate business reason for access to data. Not only is there an audit trail for what I do internally, but any calls I make to review customer data is published in the customer…

Ah the AWS employee is here to tell us that AWS employees are good, actually.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#378

Post by cycomanic »

judge2020 wrote: post #355
fredophile wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Store brand products are not new and not the issue. Let's pretend that Costco didn't currently sell vodka at all. If Costco wants to know if they should start selling vodka or bottling their own vodka and selling that they don't have access to the sales data from the liquor store next door to Costco. Amazon is letting other businesses take the risks and using sales data from those businesses to outcompete them.

But Costco does sell Vodka and wouldn't have made that product if Vodka sold 10% of what it actually sells. Because Amazon sells literally everything, is it a crime to do what Costco does, just on a bigger scale? The only end-goal that would actually solve the problem fairly is if companies couldn't sell first-party products (or products from a partner where they have a vested interest in) in their store. If you just…

This is not about making a home brand. Amazon can literally look at the sells data of e.g. some seller which sells Nike Air Jordans (as a stupid example) and go and source those themselves and offer them (the exact same brand) cheaper than the seller, because they have all the sales data. Now how would Cosco do this?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#379

Post by savanaly »

ska wrote: post #371
Tinyyy wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t kick out competitors though, merely open up their own stores. To me (the consumer), that seems fine.

To abuse this analogy further - if they also put signs for their owns stores in front of the other stores signage, or redesign the mall to direct people away from the competitors - that seems less fine.

What if there's multiple other malls just across the street? As is the case in online retail. Even easier than crossing the street, to be honest, just click that second result in Google instead of the first. Is it so hard to admit that Amazon's customers are using them because their offering is great and not because of lack of alternatives?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#380

Post by lupire »

judge2020 wrote: post #346
addicted wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's less doing it at "scale" and more doing it as a monopoly/monopsony. Walmart has faced similar questions as well, but as much of a monopoly/monopsony as Walmart is, it's far less than what Amazon is. Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws.

> Moreso in non US advanced countries that actually enforce the anti trust regulations in their laws. I think it's pretty disingenuous to say that the U.S. isn't enforcing its antitrust laws, the DOJ certainly opens investigations against these conglomerates, they just don't take them to court, so there might not be enough info for the DOJ to think there's a case. We don't know the full story for any of these cases a…

Potayto, potahtoh.

Failed enforcement attempts are as ineffective as non-attempted enforcement.

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